Trouble learning basic music theory as a novice? Frustrated? This might help...

[willop]

Different people work different ways - I'm very visual, my wife is not in the least visual. I work hard to hear the bass, can't (so far) put notes/intervals i hear into my hands/sounds from the instrument. I cannot play by ear. She however can hear a song once and sing it perfectly.

"Seeing" the shapes is very helpful for me. I've always been told music is 'mathematical' but in math I see shapes and patterns, just now beginning to see them in music.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Ed, I'd be interested in hearing more about the nature of that brick wall, and what overcoming that brick wall entailed.

Sorry, lost this for a second. I'm not too sure how much detail about my sad story you want, so let me know if it raises other questions.

When I moved to NYC in 1987, I had been to Berklee, I had finished up a music performance degree at a liberal arts school down in East Bum**** GA and was The Cat (which basically meant I was the ONLY cat playing upright) and got all the work playing jazz around there. And got by having a reasonable sound (through an amp), a reasonable swing feel and OK time. So I get up here and I'm getting some gigs, but it's like all the other folks on the stand know something I don't. I play, using the chord/scale approach I got from Berklee and it sounds OK, sort of. But when these other cats play, there is DIRECTION and INTENT and SUBSTANCE and I just don't know how they got from "play this scale when you see this chord" to being able to communicate with each other in this real and direct way. And it's like that for a few years, they play stuff that's like they're talking to each other, I play stuff that's gibberish. At first I do the only thing I know how to do, that is, get more vocabulary i.e. more scales to play over chords. But that doesn't solve my problem. Sometime in 93 or 94 (as memory serves) somebody handed me the article (which you can now find on this site) called DOING IT THE SLOW WAY by Joe Solomon and what he said in it really spoke to me on a deep level, so I started studying with him.
And that's what really made a difference in my playing. I cannot claim to be a great poet, but at the very least, I can "speak" with meaning and intent and direction. The whole approach of the Tristano school is to get the skill sets necessary to HEAR with clarity and understanding and to get what you hear out into the air without the instrument being an obstacle. Joe teaches technique (which means physical approach; how to get a big open swinging sound without tension, relaxed), there are improvisational exercises that tear apart tunes and by parameterizing the improvisation, start working on getting your ear to make the note choices in the moment. This helps get you to the place where you hear the melody, the harmony, the time and YOUR LINE all at the same time, when improvising. There are ear training exercises that get you hearing both make up and function, starting with intervals in the first octave and ending up with 4 part chords with 2 tensions (which gets you flirting with polytonality). There are exercises with rhythmic grouping and displacement. ALL of this so that when you are in a tune, in the moment, nothing should be standing in between you and your musical imagination.
Does that answer your question?

[NCD]

Wow Ed, that's awesome stuff. Here I thought this thread was going to stay at kind of a kindergarden level for those who are trying to figure out the basics of chords and you toss in the kind of thing that someone can use for years and years.

It kind of reminds me of the sort of thing Victor Wooten would say, like "Have something to say" or when he says "Listen" (to the music and your band mates).

It's the kind of thing that might take a little while to really understand but, once understood, will always apply to your playing regardless of skill level, for the rest of your life.

EDIT: They say that internalized music is what you hear in your head. I sort of understand what you are talking about because I can hear things like that in my head but my skill level is so badly lacking that I can't get it out of my head and "voice" it through the instrument. Once I began to understand arpeggios and shapes, I began to be able to use some of that "voice" because I began to really understand how a 3rd to root approach feels or how an octave-5th-root run not only sounds, but feels... if you know what I mean.

I agree that it's aural... but I feel that a person can't get to the point of learning things aurally if they're unable to even find the notes that they have in mind. The shapes group the notes, and finding the note you want in your head becomes a lot easier when you're choosing from only 4 or 5 notes instead of staring at the fret board with no idea of where other tones are in relation to the one you're on at the moment.

[Ed Fuqua]

The trap is that playing the shape is what starts driving the line, not what you're hearing.

[Groove Doctor]

Back to the OP:

It's essential each person finds the 'key' to unlock the doors that stop growing, and there are many doors along the journey. What helps at one level can harm you at another level.

Whilst I agree with Ed, 95% of us won't reach the Master level. So, if it gets you through the locked door in front of you today then its priceless.
(Playing Shapes got you to Berkley, right Ed?).


Remember the saying "don't despise the day of small beginnings".

[Ed Fuqua]

I went to Berklee, not Berkley. And what got me in was them needing upright bassists AND me being able to cover the tuition.

[willop]

Berklee?
Is that chinese knock of of Berkley? Like "energiser" batteries at the flea market?

College is like anything else - ivy league is worth every penny because you will be set for life upon graduation. A big state school is great if you live in your home state forever because there are lots of alums for networking for work/jobs.

The many 'upscale private' schools aren't worth the tuition. Like yours - never heard of it. Maybe it's well known in some field but even that carries no weight 4 years after graduation.

[Deechord]

Such good stuff here! I AM that newbie. I understand about shapes...how you move to run a C major scale etc. Using this forum...Scotts lessons....study bass..etc I feel like I have the tools...and am learning how to use them to become a competent player.
Thanks to all who contribute here!

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by willop

Like yours - never heard of it. Maybe it's well known in some field...

That field would be music.

[Deechord]

http://www.berklee.edu/

[willop]

well kept secret then.

[Marial]

Not really.

[tekdiver500ft]

Originally Posted by willop

well kept secret then.

Not even a little. It's actually one of the best known (and best) music schools in the world.

[willop]

I guess it is. http://www.ehow.com/list_6512686_10-music-schools.html
I've just never heard of it. So in my world it does not exist, has no 'value' as in reputation.
Of the 10 on the list I've heard of 7. (manhattan and san fran being the others I'd not heard of).

But as I"ve stated, a degree from a school only has value for a few years after graduation, if even that long. Say you graduated 10 years ago - what you've done in the meantime says more about to a potential employer than what school you went to.
May even be true of Harvard - graduate and spend 10 years bumming around, working odd jobs and go on an interview...sorry, as an employer I'll take into account the fact you did nothing for the past 10 years.

Have a great degree from berklee and go do the same thing and then go apply for work - chances are a recent grad will have a better shot at the job than you.

[NCD]

To prevent having the shapes drive what you play instead of what you hear, I'd recommend this:

If you can, listen to the tune first. Imagine various lines, hear them in your head. Get one into your head that really grabs you and only then try to create it.

You'll find that the shapes will get you most of the way there but there will be things outside the shapes too... scale approaches, chromatic approaches, "off" notes. When the shape isn't getting what you need, go find what you need wherever it is.

No one thing will be the magic key that unlocks it all... but for me the shape gets me 95% of the way there. Figuring out the rest is just part of learning.

[Melonthief]

Also I discovered a couple of free apps for iPhone/iPad that are sight reading and rhythm trainers that have been made into a game. Fun to play and you can practice sight reading anytime anyplace.

[Melonthief]

Originally Posted by willop

Berklee?
Is that chinese knock of of Berkley? Like "energiser" batteries at the flea market?

College is like anything else - ivy league is worth every penny because you will be set for life upon graduation. A big state school is great if you live in your home state forever because there are lots of alums for networking for work/jobs.

The many 'upscale private' schools aren't worth the tuition. Like yours - never heard of it. Maybe it's well known in some field but even that carries no weight 4 years after graduation.

My girlfriend graduated from Yale an can't brew a pot of coffee.

[tmc2300]

Originally Posted by Melonthief

My girlfriend graduated from Yale an can't brew a pot of coffee.

LOL!!! Ouch!

[Turock]

Originally Posted by willop

Berklee?
Is that chinese knock of of Berkley?

No, that's Berkree.