Trouble playing in odd time signatures(9/8,7/8,3/8,5/8,11/8 etc.)

[The_Orlonater]

I just can't play in them. I'm trying my best. Can someone please explai some of them and how you would play them with a metronome. Also maybe some examples in each time signature

http://www.thescottthuneseffect.com/...hi_duweeen.php

There are some examples here, so it'd be nice if you showed me how you would count them and play them along with a metronome.

Thank you.

[Muusers]

9/8 is similar to 6/8 only one 1 2 3 more so you get 1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3, just set the metronome at the bold numbers
3/8 is the same as 3/4 (counted that is)
7/8 can be divided two ways, depending on where the accent is or, 1 2 3-1 2 3 4 or 1 2 3 4-1 2 3
5/8 can be divided in two ways, depending on where the accent is or, 1 2-1 2 3 or 1 2 3-1 2
11/8 is like 12/8 only one 8th less, divided like 1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 or 1 2 3-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4 or 1 2 3 4-1 2 3-1 2 3 4
11/8 can also have a triplet like feel, 1 2 3-1 2 3-1 2 3-1 2 or switched around like all the others i mentioned

all the time signatures composed from 2's and 3's, like the 5/8 or 7/8, are counted depending on where the accent lies, normal time signatures, only consisting of 2's or 3's are just counted straight

btw, for the odder signatures, a metronome is really hard to set, best is just to set it on every 8th if you cant select 5 beats or more(if you've got an electric one), otherwise just on every 8th

[Thunderthumbs73]

Take Five- Dave Brubeck- 5/4
Love Is Stronger Than Justice- Sting- 7/8 (and 4/4 in choruses)
Seven Days- Sting- 5/8
Saint Augustine In Hell- Sting- 7/8
I Hung My Head- Sting- 9/8

These would be good songs to become comfortable with, in terms of odd time signatures, and they are pretty listenable without sounding impossible. There are tons more. Also working with a drummer who is comfortable with odd time signatures is always cool.

Good luck with it.

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by Muusers

9/8 is similar to 6/8 only one 1 2 3 more so you get 1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3, just set the metronome at the bold numbers
3/8 is the same as 3/4 (counted that is)
7/8 can be divided two ways, depending on where the accent is or, 1 2 3-1 2 3 4 or 1 2 3 4-1 2 3
5/8 can be divided in two ways, depending on where the accent is or, 1 2-1 2 3 or 1 2 3-1 2
11/8 is like 12/8 only one 8th less, divided like 1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 or 1 2 3-1 2 3 4-1 2 3 4 or 1 2 3 4-1 2 3-1 2 3 4
11/8 can also have a triplet like feel, 1 2 3-1 2 3-1 2 3-1 2 or switched around like all the others i mentioned

all the time signatures composed from 2's and 3's, like the 5/8 or 7/8, are counted depending on where the accent lies, normal time signatures, only consisting of 2's or 3's are just counted straight

btw, for the odder signatures, a metronome is really hard to set, best is just to set it on every 8th if you cant select 5 beats or more(if you've got an electric one), otherwise just on every 8th

Thanks, I'm curious, how you would play it with a metronome

For example, let's say 9/8
It's 4/4 with an extra eight.
Straigh eight's on a metronome in 9/8
()= click

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)

Would I then wait the extra eight note and continue on the next click?
(click 1)

[rakirksey]

Another interesting exercise I got from a teacher dealing with odd time signatures was something that he had learned when learning about Indian music.

From my limited understanding, in Indian music there aren't time signatures per se, but essentially a single beat that varies in length. Either way, the idea was to get the feeling of subdividing a beat, which is good for a number of different things.

The idea is that you keep the metronome on a constant click and then clap along with the metronome, but say 1,2,3,4, ad nauseum.

So if you are doing a subdivision in two it would be ...

1 2 3 4 etc.

Three would be

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

Four is pretty obvious

etc. for whatever you want. So that way you sort of develop a natural feel of subdividing a measure, beat, etc. into different subdivisions.

This may or may not apply, but I thought the exercise was interesting nonetheless.

[JTE]

It's probably easier to understand by listening to different time signatures. Then figure out how they're articulated. For example, 5/4 can be felt as a group of three, then a group of 2, or the other way 'round (2 then 3).

So, let's make a list of stuff with different time signatures in addtion to the one started by thunderthumbs73....

5/4- "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck; the intro to "White Room" by Jack Bruce (Cream);

7/4- "Money" by Pink Floyd

11/8- The intro to "Whipping Post" by the Allman Bros.

jte

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by JTE

It's probably easier to understand by listening to different time signatures. Then figure out how they're articulated. For example, 5/4 can be felt as a group of three, then a group of 2, or the other way 'round (2 then 3).

So, let's make a list of stuff with different time signatures in addtion to the one started by thunderthumbs73....

5/4- "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck; the intro to "White Room" by Jack Bruce (Cream);

7/4- "Money" by Pink Floyd

11/8- The intro to "Whipping Post" by the Allman Bros.

jte

I agree with this, and is why I put some songs out there. Thanks.

[Twnty1inRF]

Originally Posted by JTE

It's probably easier to understand by listening to different time signatures. Then figure out how they're articulated. For example, 5/4 can be felt as a group of three, then a group of 2, or the other way 'round (2 then 3).

So, let's make a list of stuff with different time signatures in addtion to the one started by thunderthumbs73....

5/4- "Take Five" by Dave Brubeck; the intro to "White Room" by Jack Bruce (Cream);

7/4- "Money" by Pink Floyd

11/8- The intro to "Whipping Post" by the Allman Bros.

jte

Agreed.

You can always break complex time into simple 2's and 3's, for example "Blue Rondo à la Turk" off Time Out by The Dave Brubeck Quartet can sound quite difficult to count but it is in 9/8. The trick is breaking it up like this:
121212123/121212123/121212123/123123123 ...

[Steve Clark]

One of my gigs is for Light of East Ensemble. You can link in my signature.

There are a couple of tunes, parts of tunes really, that are in odd times on the site. The actual pieces can be much longer live when we add in solos. I break them down by grouping the pulses of the music. Rampi Rampi is a quick 9/8 and I group the pattern 12 12 12 123. Kapetanaki is in 7 and I break it down to 123 12 12 and so on. We do a piece in 10/8 but I don't subdivide it but instead the traditional playing of the piece emphasizes beats 1 4 6 7 8 10 for my bass pattern. The amazing thing with his music is if you see people dancing to it who grew up in the tradition their feet move in time with the odd time signature. When the melody comes in it can throw you off but I love that. Same with solos.

I think generally if you subdivide the beats into groups that's a great place to start.

If you want to blow your brains out listen to Steve Coleman and Five Elements. There is some crazy stuff going on in that band and it grooves.

[mambo4]

as far as the metronome goes-

I wouldn't try to play something like 7/8 to a metronome clicking quarter notes just double the speed and call each click 8th notes.

If you play odd times like ?/8 over a straight 1/4 note pulse, you'll get phasing - every other measure will click on the up-beats instead of down beats, leading to confusion.

The phasing can have a neat effect -listen to the ride cymbal in St Augustine in Hell, it phases thru the whole song.

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by mambo4

as far as the metronome goes-

I wouldn't try to play something like 7/8 to a metronome clicking quarter notes just double the speed and call each click 8th notes.

If you play odd times like ?/8 over a straight 1/4 note pulse, you'll get phasing - every other measure will click on the up-beats instead of down beats, leading to confusion.

The phasing can have a neat effect -listen to the ride cymbal in St Augustine in Hell, it phases thru the whole song.

Yeah, that's what I thought because I would start again on an "and."

EDIT: It would be like I mentioned above, but I can't skip an eight.

[on1ne]

Phasing is so cool. There's a waltz that Brubeck does, I think it's Kathy's Waltz. The bass (Eugene Wright) is playing in 3 while drummer Joe Morello is doing brushwork in a 2 or 4 pattern so his pattern alternates every other measure of 3. At the same time Morello (such an octopus) manages to pump the kick drum in 3 so it lines up with the bass. Clever and beautiful.

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by mambo4

as far as the metronome goes-

I wouldn't try to play something like 7/8 to a metronome clicking quarter notes just double the speed and call each click 8th notes.

If you play odd times like ?/8 over a straight 1/4 note pulse, you'll get phasing - every other measure will click on the up-beats instead of down beats, leading to confusion.

The phasing can have a neat effect -listen to the ride cymbal in St Augustine in Hell, it phases thru the whole song.

Drummer Vinnie Colaiuta hits the ride bell in an "over the bar" kind of pattern, where on one measure, the hits are on the downbeats, and the second bar, those downbeats become the upbeats, and then the third bar is downbeats, etc... this makes for a more flowing effect that something like Rush or some other Prog band who are really accenting the odd meter quality of the music. Keep tapping eighth notes, and you'll have no problems. Or hopefully less problems.

[mvw356]

7/4 money pink floyd/ solsbury hill peter gabriel.
7/8 love is stronger than justice, sting (verse)
5/4 white room, cream

can't think of any others, but check old school genesis or dream theater

if you want 17/8 check this http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=h9k2l_...eature=related

[The_Orlonater]

Is practicing ?/8 obsolete with a metronome?

[Steve Clark]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Is practicing ?/8 obsolete with a metronome?

Nope. Just set the metronome to hit on all 8th notes be there 10 or 11 or 9 beats to start. Start slow, work up to tempo and after that there is no harm in having the metronome turn around every bar. If you can still play with the metronome turning around and you don't drop it you're on the right track.

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

I just can't play in them. I'm trying my best. Can someone please explai some of them and how you would play them with a metronome. Also maybe some examples in each time signature

http://www.thescottthuneseffect.com/...hi_duweeen.php

There are some examples here, so it'd be nice if you showed me how you would count them and play them along with a metronome.

Thank you.

break everything down into groups of 2's and 3's... if the transcriber has done their job correctly, the beaming of the notes will reflect the split of the meter

to play along, I recommend either getting the recording and playing along with that, or programming a sequencer i.e. Cubase to follow the changing time signature... that Zappa stuff with a constantly changing meter isn't really easy to play with a standard metronome...

you could do worse than getting that album... 'Make A Jazz Noise Here' is a masterclass in bass playing

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Is practicing ?/8 obsolete with a metronome?

Absolutely not. Just set the beeps/clicks fast enough so that they represent eighth notes, and away you go. But always keep yourself honest and count. Start counting out loud. As it becomes more comfortable, see if you can ween yourself off counting out loud, and think it in your head.

Ps- one of the coolest odd meter songs: "The Cool, Cool River" Paul Simon. (in 9/8) Check it out!

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

Absolutely not. Just set the beeps/clicks fast enough so that they represent eighth notes, and away you go. But always keep yourself honest and count. Start counting out loud. As it becomes more comfortable, see if you can ween yourself off counting out loud, and think it in your head.

Ps- one of the coolest odd meter songs: "The Cool, Cool River" Paul Simon. (in 9/8) Check it out!

Ok, thanks. Wouldn't I still be skipping an eight. I can probably play ?/8 if I had a drummer. I can usually count myself, it's just that, the metronome helps and I have to learn to use it well, with ?/8 it just scares me.

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Ok, thanks. Wouldn't I still be skipping an eight. I can probably play ?/8 if I had a drummer. I can usually count myself, it's just that, the metronome helps and I have to learn to use it well, with ?/8 it just scares me.

Not at all. If you set the tempo of your metronome to a fast tempo, and decide you want to play a non odd meter like 8/8 (which I consider to be 4/4), then you have eight beats per measure, as eighth notes in 4/4 is, and each one of those beeps on the metronome is an eighth note. Correspondingly, the quarter notes will be the length of two of those beeps. Eight of them will go by, and then you're on to the next measure. For 7/8, you have 7 beeps of the metronome, and then you're on to the next measure.

I spoke earlier about the importance of counting so that you keep your place. Another thing that will help this, is to give an accent (slight or drastic, whatever works for you) to wherever the "1" is. You can do this vocally during counting, with the instrument, or both.

I hope I am relaying this info well enough.