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 mastershake 01-07-2013 03:55 AM

Trying to figure out names of these scales?

I believe they're diminished pentatonic scales: c,d,f,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, dim7th
the next is c,d,e,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, dim7th

 MalcolmAmos 01-07-2013 06:00 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mastershake (Post 13680343) I believe they're diminished pentatonic scales: c,d,f,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, dim7th
Good question, Major pentatonic would be C, D, E, G, A. Yours leaves out the 3 and inserts a 4 in it's place. The A# would not be the dim7th. It is the 6th sharped. Now on the next one.......

Quote:
 ......the next is c,d,e,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, dim7th
Here again you are listing the 6th as a dim7. C, D, E, G, A is the major pentatonic . This one having that sharped A is still a problem when naming it. I really do not know what name to give to a pentatonic scale when you raise the 6 a half step. Raise the 4th and we could call it Lydian something, raise the 6th and we would could call it Dorian something, but, for the life of me I do not think I've run on to a pentatonic raised 6th and had it named.

I'm sure you have already played with this and that is why you are asking the question. I bet it does have a name, but, I'm at a loss what it would be. I'd just call it the mastershake scale until someone came up with a better name. LOL

 Russell L 01-07-2013 06:11 AM

A dim7 scale step is the same tone as A natural. Technically, it is the 7th note of the major scale lowered by TWO half-steps. But,an A# is tecnically an augmented 6th, but sounds just like a m7.

 Fergie Fulton 01-07-2013 07:21 AM

The fact you have one sharp puts you in the G Major, but your use of the sharp does not comply, but call it Bb and you have one of the notes of G minor. So rather than it been any scale that uses C as its root, it is just an inversion of a Gm Pentatonic scale ( the flats used B and E ) where you have no Eb to use.
The second one you have just diminished the 7th of the G minor Pentatonic scale, by flattening the F to E, but the 5th is still un-altered so not a fully diminished scale ( or chord tones ) so it could be seen as a part diminished or half diminished Pentatonic G minor scale.

Combine the two and you are on your way to creating one of many Blues Scales, which can have elements of Major and minor, depending on how you use and view passing notes, in its structure.

One form of a G Blues scale;
G A A# B D E G

As you can see it has the b3 of a minor and the 3 of a major in it, so as I said depends what you use as passing notes and in what key you relate it to. (the shape transfers into all Keys, but the notes will obviously change).

Compare that to a Major or minor Pentatonic scale to see the difference, but also how close they are.

Many ways to read it, but in its simplistic form it is just an inversion of Gm.

 mastershake 01-07-2013 01:39 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos (Post 13680539) Good question, Major pentatonic would be C, D, E, G, A. Yours leaves out the 3 and inserts a 4 in it's place. The A# would not be the dim7th. It is the 6th sharped. Now on the next one....... Here again you are listing the 6th as a dim7. C, D, E, G, A is the major pentatonic . This one having that sharped A is still a problem when naming it. I really do not know what name to give to a pentatonic scale when you raise the 6 a half step. Raise the 4th and we could call it Lydian something, raise the 6th and we would could call it Dorian something, but, for the life of me I do not think I've run on to a pentatonic raised 6th and had it named. I'm sure you have already played with this and that is why you are asking the question. I bet it does have a name, but, I'm at a loss what it would be. I'd just call it the mastershake scale until someone came up with a better name. LOL
So your saying I should refer to that interval as an aug6 instead of a diminished 7th

 mastershake 01-07-2013 01:43 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton (Post 13680780) The fact you have one sharp puts you in the G Major, but your use of the sharp does not comply, but call it Bb and you have one of the notes of G minor. So rather than it been any scale that uses C as its root, it is just an inversion of a Gm Pentatonic scale ( the flats used B and E ) where you have no Eb to use. The second one you have just diminished the 7th of the G minor Pentatonic scale, by flattening the F to E, but the 5th is still un-altered so not a fully diminished scale ( or chord tones ) so it could be seen as a part diminished or half diminished Pentatonic G minor scale. Combine the two and you are on your way to creating one of many Blues Scales, which can have elements of Major and minor, depending on how you use and view passing notes, in its structure. One form of a G Blues scale; G A A# B D E G As you can see it has the b3 of a minor and the 3 of a major in it, so as I said depends what you use as passing notes and in what key you relate it to. (the shape transfers into all Keys, but the notes will obviously change). Compare that to a Major or minor Pentatonic scale to see the difference, but also how close they are. Many ways to read it, but in its simplistic form it is just an inversion of Gm.
I suppose it is just an Inversion but I'v seen names given to scales that don't fall into the 7 modes.

 mastershake 01-07-2013 01:53 PM

The interesting thing about the first scale is it derives from both the overtone and undertone series.

 Fergie Fulton 01-07-2013 05:05 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mastershake (Post 13682652) I suppose it is just an Inversion but I'v seen names given to scales that don't fall into the 7 modes.
That's the point there are many ways to interprete those notes, any of these will cover it depending on the context they get used in.:)

Or

D7 flat13 sus2/G
D11 sus2 #5/G
D7 flat13 sus2 sus4/G
D7 sus2 sus4 #5/G

Or

Em7 flat13 flat5/G

Etc etc.

It's all in the eye of the beholder ( or is that ear )

Not everything falls in to a defined category, theory has rules, but because it is spread out over centuries, it has its pure form, then it has had its forms developed to keep up with music development and technology of the twentieth Century.
In the same way as all those chords sort of relate to the same thing, so it happens in music theory as it develops to keep pace, but as it does not develop centrally from once source, there will be variations that mean the same thing.
Some Cities or countries will use a standard set of notation, it might be the G minor Is just written as Gm in one area, but written as G- in others. Some write GMaj, others just write G, as it is understood that unless stated other wise all chords are Major, so no need to add the Maj next to it.

If you take the time and read a variety of modern music books, the author will normally give you a key or index to the terms they prefer with the other variations that may be used. It's just progress and as countries have different words for the same thing, so does music:)

 Art Araya 01-07-2013 05:15 PM

I've been compiling a massive database of scales and have a scale app in the works. Drop me a PM for scale name questions.

Names for your first scale: c,d,f,g,a# (1,2,4,5,#6,8)

Suspended Pentatonic

Egyptian
Jin Yu
Megh
Qing Yu
Rui Bin
Shang
Yo (1)

It's also a mode of other scales:

Bilahari (Mode 2)
Chinese Mongolian (Mode 2)
Deskar (Mode 2)
Diatonic (Mode 2)
Ghana Pentatonic (2) (Mode 2)
Gong (Mode 2)
Jait Kalyan (Mode 2)
Kokila (Mode 2)
Major Pentatonic (Mode 2)
Man Jue (Mode 2)
Mohanam (Mode 2)
Mongolian (Mode 2)
Pentatonic (Major) (Mode 2)
Peruvian Pentatonic (1) (Mode 2)
Raga Bhopali (Mode 2)
Raga Bhup (Mode 2)
Raga Bhupali (Mode 2)
Ryosen (Mode 2)
Yona Nuki majeur (Mode 2)
Abheri (Mode 3)
Blues Pentatonic (Mode 3)
Gu Xian (Mode 3)
Hard Japan descending (2) (Mode 3)
Jia Zhong (Mode 3)
Kyenyonojo (Mode 3)
Minor Pentatonic (Mode 3)
Minyo (Mode 3)
P'yongjo-kyemyonjo (Mode 3)
Pentatonic (Minor) (Mode 3)
Pentatonic Dominant (1) (Mode 3)
Peruvian Pentatonic (2) (Mode 3)
Pyongjo-kyemyonjo (Mode 3)
Qing Shang (Mode 3)
Raga Dhani (Suddha Dhanyasi) (Mode 3)
Udhayaravi Chandrika (Mode 3)
Yu (2) (Mode 3)
Arabhi (Mode 4)
Durga (Mode 4)
Major Complementary (Mode 4)
P'yongjo (1) (Mode 4)
Raga Devakri (Mode 4)
Raga Devakriya (Mode 4)
Raga Malhar (Mode 4)
Ritsu (Gagaku) (Mode 4)
Ritusen (Japan) (Mode 4)
Scottish Pentatonic (Mode 4)
Suddha Saveri (Mode 4)
Ujo (Mode 4)
Zheng (Mode 4)
Zhi (Mode 4)
Blues Pentatonic Minor (Mode 5)
Hard Japan descending (1) (Mode 5)
Jiao (Mode 5)
Man Gong (Mode 5)
Quan Ming (Mode 5)
Raga Hindola (Mode 5)
Raga Malkauns (Mode 5)
Yi Ze (Mode 5)

 Art Araya 01-07-2013 05:19 PM

The scale is the Dominant Pentatonic.

It's the mode of other scales:

Kung (1) (Mode 2)
Major Pentatonic b5 (Mode 2)
Pentatonic Lydian (Mode 2)
Kyemyonjo (Mode 3)
Minor 6 Pentatonic (Mode 3)
Chan (Mode 4)
Chin (Mode 4)
Raga Harikauns (India) (Mode 4)
Chaio (Mode 5)

 Fergie Fulton 01-07-2013 05:41 PM

Art......I take my hat off to your thoroughness on the subject, with examples I never even imagined existed.:)

 mastershake 01-07-2013 06:26 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Art Araya (Post 13683669) I've been compiling a massive database of scales and have a scale app in the works. Drop me a PM for scale name questions. Names for your first scale: c,d,f,g,a# (1,2,4,5,#6,8) Suspended Pentatonic Egyptian Jin Yu Madhmat Sarang Megh Qing Yu Raga Madhyamavati Rui Bin Shang Yo (1) It's also a mode of other scales: Bilahari (Mode 2) Chinese Mongolian (Mode 2) Deskar (Mode 2) Diatonic (Mode 2) Ghana Pentatonic (2) (Mode 2) Gong (Mode 2) Jait Kalyan (Mode 2) Kokila (Mode 2) Major Pentatonic (Mode 2) Man Jue (Mode 2) Mohanam (Mode 2) Mongolian (Mode 2) Pentatonic (Major) (Mode 2) Peruvian Pentatonic (1) (Mode 2) Raga Bhopali (Mode 2) Raga Bhup (Mode 2) Raga Bhupali (Mode 2) Ryosen (Mode 2) Yona Nuki majeur (Mode 2) Abheri (Mode 3) Blues Pentatonic (Mode 3) Gu Xian (Mode 3) Hard Japan descending (2) (Mode 3) Jia Zhong (Mode 3) Kyenyonojo (Mode 3) Minor Pentatonic (Mode 3) Minyo (Mode 3) P'yongjo-kyemyonjo (Mode 3) Pentatonic (Minor) (Mode 3) Pentatonic Dominant (1) (Mode 3) Peruvian Pentatonic (2) (Mode 3) Pyongjo-kyemyonjo (Mode 3) Qing Shang (Mode 3) Raga Dhani (Suddha Dhanyasi) (Mode 3) Udhayaravi Chandrika (Mode 3) Yu (2) (Mode 3) Arabhi (Mode 4) Durga (Mode 4) Major Complementary (Mode 4) P'yongjo (1) (Mode 4) Raga Devakri (Mode 4) Raga Devakriya (Mode 4) Raga Malhar (Mode 4) Ritsu (Gagaku) (Mode 4) Ritusen (Japan) (Mode 4) Scottish Pentatonic (Mode 4) Suddha Saveri (Mode 4) Ujo (Mode 4) Zheng (Mode 4) Zhi (Mode 4) Blues Pentatonic Minor (Mode 5) Hard Japan descending (1) (Mode 5) Jiao (Mode 5) Man Gong (Mode 5) Quan Ming (Mode 5) Raga Hindola (Mode 5) Raga Malkauns (Mode 5) Yi Ze (Mode 5)
Thank you for taking the time to type all that out. I appreciate it.

 Clef_de_fa 01-07-2013 06:49 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mastershake (Post 13680343) I believe they're diminished pentatonic scales: c,d,f,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, dim7th the next is c,d,e,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, dim7th
Well ... change you A# to Bb and you have Gmin pentatonic in its second inversion

The second one could be C7 because you have a major3rd and if you change your A# to Bb ... you just omit the 4th and the 6th which is weird for a pentatonic major ... normally it would be C-D-E-G-A

 mastershake 01-07-2013 07:08 PM

So the first scale its essentially an afro-asian scale.

 Russell L 01-07-2013 08:50 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton (Post 13680780) The fact you have one sharp puts you in the G Major, but your use of the sharp does not comply, but call it Bb and you have one of the notes of G minor. So rather than it been any scale that uses C as its root, it is just an inversion of a Gm Pentatonic scale ( the flats used B and E ) where you have no Eb to use. The second one you have just diminished the 7th of the G minor Pentatonic scale, by flattening the F to E, but the 5th is still un-altered so not a fully diminished scale ( or chord tones ) so it could be seen as a part diminished or half diminished Pentatonic G minor scale. Combine the two and you are on your way to creating one of many Blues Scales, which can have elements of Major and minor, depending on how you use and view passing notes, in its structure. One form of a G Blues scale; G A A# B D E G As you can see it has the b3 of a minor and the 3 of a major in it, so as I said depends what you use as passing notes and in what key you relate it to. (the shape transfers into all Keys, but the notes will obviously change). Compare that to a Major or minor Pentatonic scale to see the difference, but also how close they are. Many ways to read it, but in its simplistic form it is just an inversion of Gm.
I would call the A# in your scale Bb since it is a "blue" third.

 Groove Master 01-07-2013 08:50 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mastershake (Post 13680343) I believe they're diminished pentatonic scales: c,d,f,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, dim7th the next is c,d,e,g,a# 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, dim7th
First)
If for you A# is the dim7, then you should be aware that it is a minor 7, not diminished7.

Second)
Your first scale is the second mode of the Bb Major pentatonic or it is the third mode of G minor pentatonic. It is the same thing. Starting on C, it fits really well C9 sus4

Your second scale could be thought as a C dominant pentatonic (C7) or a G min6 pentatonic. It is the same thing.

Hope this helps,

GM

 Art Araya 01-07-2013 09:03 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mastershake (Post 13684008) Thank you for taking the time to type all that out. I appreciate it.
You're welcome. Though I didn't type out that list - I had my app generate it!

:hyper:

 oniman7 01-07-2013 09:17 PM

Just thinking out loud here,

What if it's a C Mixolydian:

C D E F G A Bb C

 Art Araya 01-07-2013 09:20 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by oniman7 (Post 13684799) Just thinking out loud here, What if it's a C Mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C
It's similar but it's missing the 3rd and 6th degrees of the Mixolydian.

 oniman7 01-07-2013 10:00 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Art Araya (Post 13684811) It's similar but it's missing the 3rd and 6th degrees of the Mixolydian.
I guess it would depend on context then as it could just be missing scale degrees. Right?

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