Turning theory and practice into practical music

[chanson]

A bit of background- I've been playing bass for a little over five years. In the last year I hadn't played very much and fell back on a lot of the theory I had obtained. I have begun playing fairly often in the last month or two, and have really been enjoying getting back into music. My goal is to be the absolute best musician I can be. I'd say that currently my playing and and knowledge of theory are on an intermediate level. I've been taking lessons the last month at a local music education school. I've been studying the various books I have on theory and playing, trying to soak in as much as I can. My main focus is jazz, which I don't have much experience playing, but I truly love it. I also play some rock, r&b, funk, soul, etc.

Now, the problem. Where to apply all of this, and what exactly do I need to practice? I've been trying to learn to play songs, mostly funky r&b kind of stuff. The problem is my studies in jazz seems to stop at the theory level. I don't really know how to apply it, or what exactly I should be studying. My teacher at the music school is mostly a rock/rockabilly kind of guy, so jazz is not his expertise per say, although he teaches me as much as he can. I've been studying walking basslines, but at this point have only been learning out of instructional books/articles. Should I buy a Real Book and get in some realistic practice? Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am just sort of stuck on how to get to the next level.

[madmartyr17]

Honestly, the best way to learn to apply theory is to get out of the classroom, and into the jams. The only true way to apply theory is to get in with other musicians, and walk your basslines over their chord progressions, or solo over their breaks. Sure, you can sit in your room and write cool stuff, but to "Take it to the next level" as you say, you gotta sit down with other guys, preferably who know more theory than you do, and just jam. Then, you can apply, and maybe even pick up some things you didn't know

Hope this helped

[chanson]

Originally Posted by madmartyr17

Honestly, the best way to learn to apply theory is to get out of the classroom, and into the jams. The only true way to apply theory is to get in with other musicians, and walk your basslines over their chord progressions, or solo over their breaks. Sure, you can sit in your room and write cool stuff, but to "Take it to the next level" as you say, you gotta sit down with other guys, preferably who know more theory than you do, and just jam. Then, you can apply, and maybe even pick up some things you didn't know

Hope this helped

This is very true. Perhaps something I mean to ask is for more material to learn/study other than just the typical walking bass in a jazz style. Like jazz songs that are more groovy or vampy than just pure walking bass...I don't know...not enough sleep, forgive me if I don't make sense.

[enricogaletta]

Well another alternative way is simulate the performance and apply some good tips at your knowledge, unfortunately this is one of the good thing that you got when your instructor teach you good.
My opinion is that teaching is not show to how learn the pattern, lick, theory or whatever; the big deal is have the patience to explain and show to how apply it in the reality your knowledge
Anyway if you need help just let me know PM I would be happy to pass some suggestions.
Cheers. Enrico
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[BassChuck]

Don't forget.... the music came first and then the theory. Nobody 'invented' music rules and then went about making music (well, some would argue that Schoenberg did just that, but lets not digress). The truth is that over the centuries musicians jammed and made music that sounded good to them. Period. Theory has come about to quantize these experiments and make it easy to understand centuries of good work and excellent ideas. So, in that respect, we need music theory... its a great time saver. But, its not the guiding light. Your ear is the guiding light... so are other musicians. So, the advice to get out and jam is as good as it gets. Write down ideas, share them, try something new, try to copy something old. Get other musicians together. Don't worry if you don't have a complete group... any collection of good musicians is capable of making good music. Anytime you're making music you'll be learning something... if you pay attention.

[MalcolmAmos]

Knowing that a R-3-5-b7 bass line is needed under this specific chord is only 1/2 the story. How to get that into the music before the music goes off and leaves you is the other 1/2.

The gravy is the groove and the rhythm. The specific note is secondary.

Takes awhile.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by chanson

My main focus is jazz, which I don't have much experience playing, but I truly love it. I also play some rock, r&b, funk, soul, etc.

Some excellent suggestions already. It's not always easy to find other people to play jazz with, particularly when you are starting out. Theory is great, as are scales, arpeggios and other tools, but a lot of people starting out forget that you have to actually play the music.

I would suggest sitting down and learning a lot of jazz bass lines and playing along with the tunes and some of the Abersold CDs. You'll start to see what the jazz players are playing over the different changes and practice those lines yourself.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by chanson

... other than just the typical walking bass in a jazz style. Like jazz songs that are more groovy or vampy than just pure walking bass...

That kinda sounds like you don't want to play songs that are really jazz.

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

That kinda sounds like you don't want to play songs that are really jazz.

I dont wish to get into a "what is jazz" debate here, but I'm sure you know that "jazz" is just an umbrella name and covers a multitude, a lot of which does not include walking bass.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

I would suggest sitting down and learning a lot of jazz bass lines and playing along with the tunes and some of the Abersold CDs. You'll start to see what the jazz players are playing over the different changes and practice those lines yourself.

I don't really agree. Sure, you want to listen to as much of this music as you can, to get the way the language sounds in your ear. But I know my first experiences of "playing along with tunes" were less than pleasant because I couldn't understand why it wasn't all in one key (SEVEN STEPS TO HEAVEN starts in F, why doesn't F major work anymore?) and because I couldn't hear where the other tonal centers were moving to. Which is basically functional harmony and ear training, if I had even a passing understanding of the first and had put even a small amount of work on the second, my first experience would have been vastly different.
If you want to play basketball with any kind real expertise, you don't try to learn by just playing basketball, you actually have to practice and understand a lot of the very basic building blocks. Sure, you have to get out there in the real world and mix it up, but you will have more fun AND have a better game if you've worked on ball control, shooting with either hand, running drills backwards, etc.
Music's the same, the basics are physical approach to the instrument, hearing with clarity and hearing with understanding. Or technique, ear training and theory.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by fearceol

I dont wish to get into a "what is jazz" debate here, but I'm sure you know that "jazz" is just an umbrella name and covers a multitude, a lot of which does not include walking bass.

Umbrella name? Not anymore than "French" is an umbrella name.

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Umbrella name? Not anymore than "French" is an umbrella name.

What I mean is that when someone talks about jazz, they could mean anything from Dixieland, through be bop to contemporary jazz. By it's very nature it is constantly evolving. IMO, it is not for any one person to define "real" jazz, as every one's interpretation is different.

[Ed Fuqua]

Constantly evolving, sure. Language generally does. But French doesn't suddenly become German. No matter how much someone wants to "interpret" German as being somehow French.

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Constantly evolving, sure.

In that case, does it not follow that everything from be bop to contempory jazz, is actually all "jazz" ?

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I don't really agree.

Re-read the original post:

"Where to apply all of this, and what exactly do I need to practice? I've been trying to learn to play songs, mostly funky r&b kind of stuff. The problem is my studies in jazz seems to stop at the theory level. I don't really know how to apply it, or what exactly I should be studying."

I'm not suggesting that he ignore the other suggestions, as a matter of fact I called them excellent suggestions. I also said that theory is great and he is studying it. However, he wanted to know what to practice. If he wants to learn jazz, he needs to practice jazz, not funky r&b stuff. There is nothing wrong with the funky stuff, but it's not going to help him learn jazz.

[Ed Fuqua]

And neither is "learning a lot of jazz bass lines and playing along with the tunes and some of the Abersold CDs" that's what I disagree with and that's why I quoted that part of your post.
I certainly understand that you're posting an approach, based on your experience, that's gotten you to where you are with this music. It would be very interesting to hear where that is. Because that's all I'm doing, posting an approach that's based on my experience that has gotten me to where I am, and I'm pretty transparent in that regard. There's plenty of places that you can hear my playing and decide if that's a direction to go in; all I'm saying is that, if THAT'S where you want to go, THIS is what got me there.

Look, it's really no skin off my nose whatever anybody chooses to do.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by madmartyr17

Honestly, the best way to learn to apply theory is to get out of the classroom, and into the jams. The only true way to apply theory is to get in with other musicians, and walk your basslines over their chord progressions, or solo over their breaks. Sure, you can sit in your room and write cool stuff, but to "Take it to the next level" as you say, you gotta sit down with other guys, preferably who know more theory than you do, and just jam. Then, you can apply, and maybe even pick up some things you didn't know

Hope this helped

That never really helped me.

When playing with others, I default to just playing root notes. I find it difficult to fit anything more complex than that into my playing.

[Russell L]

I agree with Ed mostly. I think that understanding theory is something that must be done alone at first. Learn what's going on. That's hard to do when just playing along with folks. Train your ear, learn patterns, scales, etc. at home, then try to apply it all to a song from, say, the Real Book, or any chart you can find. Analyze the piece, see where the harmony goes, how keys change, etc. It can be difficult to put all this together in your mind at once, so be patient. Some of us have taken decades to get to where we are now with it all. And still we could use some improvement. And don't feel bad if you have a hard time at it. We all do, or have. One of the best things that helps me is my ear, but I have to be VERY familiar with the changes. Often I can just walk around to the next chord even if I don't know what it really is, just by using my ear. But, it's also just as important to understand WHAT is going on. Theory is a great tool.

I also don't agree that the music was invented before the theory. In some cases that is true, especially in traditional ethnic stuff, but there is much in our standard Western music theory that was very meticulously thought out and then implemented based purely on what was thought out. As a matter of fact, even traditional ethnis stuff can be said to have been thought out, otherwise how would it always have that "sound" that it does? Someone had to think of it, and then teach everyone else how to do it THAT WAY---that's their theory, so to speak.

[Papa Dangerous]

The only way to ever ever ever know jazz is to study and know George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization inside and out! Otherwise... there is no substitute..!

[Michael Case]

I think if you want to learn how to play jazz a simple first step is find a teacher who understands and plays jazz. Listening to as much of the music as possible is important too. Listen to the bass, but also listen to the horns, piano, drums. Try some transcription of walking lines, and solos by bassists and horn players. A real book can be very helpful when first learning the music, get one, read through the melodies of standards and try walking through the changes. Do this without the aid of a play-a-long and see if you can hear the form in your walking line. Also, check out this thread by Ed REALLY Learning a tune

His method is spot on for learning jazz, he knows his stuff when it comes to this music