Understanding the beat

[catyak]

I thought that I understood downbeats, upbeats and backbeats until I read "Bass for Dummies." The part where he mentions playing along with the drummer just confused me. Any suggestions on a good website that I can read to help me understand what's going on between the drummer and the bassist?

[SLaPiNFuNK]

Well, what kind of music?

Jazz, the bass player is "walking" along with the drummers ride. A good bass / drum lock will have the drummer and bass players playing skips nearly in sync...

Hard rock I guess you would call it, playing slap and pop, the kick drum and thumb slap is nearly in unison (some accents different here and there) and the pop could be in unison with the snare.

In rock / funk / metal, the kick drum is re-enforcing what the bass player is playing.

You really got to listen to whats going on and you could hear some of these moments taking place.

[Intenzity]

Originally Posted by catyak

I thought that I understood downbeats, upbeats and backbeats until I read "Bass for Dummies."

What did he say that confused you?

There is a concept of weak beats and strong beats in music, and it pretty much transcends styles. He probably mentioned that, I would guess and talked about beats 2 and 4 vs. 1 and 3 and then the most common subdivision types - straight 8ths, swing/shuffle, and 16ths.

Where was the curve ball?

[Russell L]

I am confused as to in what way you are confused. Please explain.

[carl h.]

I think he is putting the dipthong on the hemiola instead of on the ictus. This can make the back beat seem pizzicato instead of rubato.

Typical rookie mistake. Focus on the snare head instead of the batter head and the plagal cadences will be a thing of the past. Unless playing dorian. Then watch your aeolian doesn't go hypomixolydian or you are SCREWED!

[catyak]

Originally Posted by Intenzity

Where was the curve ball?

The section "Grooving with a Drummer," Pfieffer talks about the parts of the drum kit.

The bass drum is played on the first beat of the measure. That's a downbeat, right? He suggests that the bassist match the rhythm.

The snare is played on beats two and four. He calls those the backbeats. I thought that those were downbeats, too. He suggests that the bassist play with or against the snare.

The hi-hat is played between the beats, either on eighth or sixteenth notes. Or the drummer can use cymbals instead. He says that most of the bassists notes are in sync with the hi-hat.

I got confused between the snare and hi-hat. I thought that downbeats were 1,2,3,4 (assuming 4/4 time) and that upbeats were between them (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and). I've never contemplated the difference between a downbeat and a backbeat.

I've spent the last few days listening to songs and trying to hear the relation between bass and drum that he mentions. I figured Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd would be good to listen to. Good bass, but my attention wanders with them because there's too much going on.

So, I put on some country. Charley Pride, Alan Jackson, David Coe. Simple enough that I can hear the bass following the drums. But I still don't hear the connection with the hi-hats or cymbals or how the drummer is signalling a change or turnaround for the music.

Hope that reduces the confusion as to what I'm confused about.

[Cabazon]

Originally Posted by catyak

The section "Grooving with a Drummer," Pfieffer talks about the parts of the drum kit.

The bass drum is played on the first beat of the measure. That's a downbeat, right? He suggests that the bassist match the rhythm.

The snare is played on beats two and four. He calls those the backbeats. I thought that those were downbeats, too. He suggests that the bassist play with or against the snare.

The hi-hat is played between the beats, either on eighth or sixteenth notes. Or the drummer can use cymbals instead. He says that most of the bassists notes are in sync with the hi-hat.

I got confused between the snare and hi-hat. I thought that downbeats were 1,2,3,4 (assuming 4/4 time) and that upbeats were between them (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and). I've never contemplated the difference between a downbeat and a backbeat.

I've spent the last few days listening to songs and trying to hear the relation between bass and drum that he mentions. I figured Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd would be good to listen to. Good bass, but my attention wanders with them because there's too much going on.

So, I put on some country. Charley Pride, Alan Jackson, David Coe. Simple enough that I can hear the bass following the drums. But I still don't hear the connection with the hi-hats or cymbals or how the drummer is signalling a change or turnaround for the music.

Hope that reduces the confusion as to what I'm confused about.

I've heard both of those definitions for downbeat, personally. I just don't use the term to solve confusion.
Backbeats are rock-oriented, snare on 2 and 4, and unrelated to downbeats and upbeats.

The bit he adds in about the hi-hat and cymbals is unnecessary. It sounds like you're just confusing yourself with it. All there is with that is that most often, you will use similar subdivisions of notes in your playing. You probably won't find yourself playing triplets while the drummer's got a straight eighth note groove going on.

[catyak]

Originally Posted by Cabazon

The bit he adds in about the hi-hat and cymbals is unnecessary. It sounds like you're just confusing yourself with it.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Cabazon

All there is with that is that most often, you will use similar subdivisions of notes in your playing.

So just locking on to the rhythm of the drums? No secret handshakes? I like things when they're simple like that

[bass12]

Skip that chapter. As a matter of fact, skip that book. Never read a book written for dummies...

Just listen to the music. At this stage, doing that will give you everything you need to know regarding the drums and their relationship to the bass.

[alec]

Sounds like that author is overthinking it.

Just put on some blues, rock or funk and listen to the rhythm section.

[kr0n]

Downbeats make you bob your head down and upbeats feel like lifting the section.

[mambo4]

"back beat" refers to the beats that are between the "strong" beats, regardless of meter.
In pratcice it's generally either 2&4 or the "ands" of 1,2,3,4.
I hear it used both ways with equal frequency.
The further back in 20th century music you go, the more likely "back beat" is to refer to the 2&4.
The snare drum pattern in early rock and roll/R&B and previous big band music was called the "back beat" in contrast to the classical "strong" beats of 1&3.

"down beat" is usually always the 1, But infrequently I have heard it used to simply mean any 1/4 note beat of the measure, in contrast to the 8th note "ands" of 1,2,3,4.

It is common (almost cliche) to Emphasize how crucial it is for the bass "lock in" with the drummer.
It is rare for this to be followed with useful specifics: what part of the drum kit do I "lock" with?
Does "lock" mean I play the exact same rhythm? Or can I "Lock" while playing a different rhythm?
The truth is what the bass does with respect to the drum kit is entirely dependant on the style of music,
there will be different approaches wherever you listen.
What the drums and bass are doing often defines the style.

The fundamental job of a bassist is to support the rhythm of the song.
In most pop/rock music, the easy no-brainer shortcut that never fails is to play root notes in time with the kick drum (assuming your drummer is decent).
It may more rewarding and interesting to come up with a more interesting interplay
-but it's also very easy to derail the rhythmic identity and fail to serve the song.

When ever I stray from the kick pattern it's because
1.) I'm borrowing a motif form some other style
or 2.) My ears told me there was space for some extra sauce...

[catyak]

Originally Posted by bass12

Skip that chapter. As a matter of fact, skip that book. Never read a book written for dummies...

Me getting confused over his wording doesn't make it a bad book. I've learned things from it. For example, he goes though a few styles using the same run of notes. That helped me put understand some of the genres.

It's a resource, one that I can read, pick up stuff and then head on over to talkbass to confirm what I've learned and verify that it's correct.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by catyak

I thought that I understood downbeats, upbeats and backbeats until I read "Bass for Dummies." The part where he mentions playing along with the drummer just confused me. Any suggestions on a good website that I can read to help me understand what's going on between the drummer and the bassist?

Bass for Dummies... Oh lord, the punch lines that are coming to mind...

The relationship between you and the drummer should be simple at this level; An old rock & roll rule of thumb is that you should be playing with the kick drum (and vice versa). When you get into more advance playing, you follow his fills with fills of your own, learn how to "drag" the beat (by playing every not slightly slower than him) and "push" the beat (By doing the opposite). This is NOT something one learns in a book; You really have to play with drummers to feel comfortable with this.

[oniman7]

I always hear about the bassist playing in conjunction with the kick drum, but to be honest, my drummer doesn't always play his kick enough. There are parts of softer songs where he adds some light cymbal work, sometimes where he accents certain beats (he might pick an and, or a 3 or something). It was hard learning to play with a drummer, but comes naturally after you do it so often. If you have a drummer, pick some easy covers to play with them so you can learn how it works. It'll also help your time so you don't get lost everytime he does a fill that's not in the same beat.

[bassybill]

These terms vary in useage a little, as is apparent from this thread. But generally:

Downbeat = 1 (sometimes 1 and 3)
Upbeat = 4 (conductor's upward stroke before 1st beat of next bar)

Backbeat = 2 and 4 (between the stress beats on 1 and 3).

[Febs]

Originally Posted by bassybill

These terms vary in useage a little, as is apparent from this thread. But generally:

Downbeat = 1 (sometimes 1 and 3)
Upbeat = 4 (conductor's upward stroke before 1st beat of next bar)

Backbeat = 2 and 4 (between the stress beats on 1 and 3).

Perhaps there are geographical differences, but this is not how these terms are generally used in my experience. The terms "downbeat" and "upbeat" refer to the parts of each beat, not to particular beats in a measure. If you are in 4/4:

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

1,2,3,4 = downbeats
each of the "+" = upbeats
2,4 = backbeat

So to take a random example, in the song "Heatwave" by Martha and the Vandellas, the accents are on the downbeat of 1 and the upbeat of 2.

[Luff]

If you ask me, locking in with the groove has less to do with playing the "correct" line and more to do with how you play that line. You can play the same line in many different ways. It's sort of a state of mind where you are really listening to the drum and making it groove instead of just playing the line.

Hard to explain, but hopefully you got the gist of it.

[catyak]

Originally Posted by Febs

So to take a random example, in the song "Heatwave" by Martha and the Vandellas, the accents are on the downbeat of 1 and the upbeat of 2.

So, "ONE and two AND three and four and"?

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Febs

Perhaps there are geographical differences, but this is not how these terms are generally used in my experience. The terms "downbeat" and "upbeat" refer to the parts of each beat, not to particular beats in a measure. If you are in 4/4:

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

1,2,3,4 = downbeats
each of the "+" = upbeats
2,4 = backbeat

So to take a random example, in the song "Heatwave" by Martha and the Vandellas, the accents are on the downbeat of 1 and the upbeat of 2.

Yeah - you may be right about the geographical thing. Over here, what you're calling downbeats and upbeats would be called on beat and off beat. In conventional usage (here at least), downbeat and upbeat are definite beats in a bar rather than just subdivisons of a beat.

Some useful reading for the OP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(music)