The use of the Melodic Minor and its Modes in Jazz.

[The_Orlonater]

I know them all, but I want to see their uses, in regular tune writing other then the Major scale's modes.

[HaVIC5]

The modes I've gotten the most mileage from are the lydian dominant (mode 4), locrian natural 2 (mode 6) and the altered (mode 7). Lydian dominant is a great all-purpose sound for most dominants, especially subV's and major dominants. The altered (superlocrian, diminished whole tone) scale is good for the same thing, although its typically used for more minor dominant sounds versus major dominant. Locrian natural 2 is a more modern sound for locrian - it can be used on minor7b5 chords or wherever a locrian chord/scale might be used. Typically, it sounds more "in" to use it on a minor7b5 when the II-V pattern resolves to major (D-7(b5)-G7(b9)-Cmaj7), since the natural 2 on the locrian natural 2 is the major third of the target tonic, but you can always do it on minor II-V's too, and it will sound hip.

As for the other modes, I guess lydian augmented is useful on occasion for being played over major 7 #5 chords, and mixolydian b13 would be a good choice over secondary dominants, probably V7/II in a major key. I'm not sure what I'd use Dorian b9 for.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

The modes I've gotten the most mileage from are the lydian dominant (mode 4), locrian natural 2 (mode 6) and the altered (mode 7). Lydian dominant is a great all-purpose sound for most dominants, especially subV's and major dominants. The altered (superlocrian, diminished whole tone) scale is good for the same thing, although its typically used for more minor dominant sounds versus major dominant. Locrian natural 2 is a more modern sound for locrian - it can be used on minor7b5 chords or wherever a locrian chord/scale might be used. Typically, it sounds more "in" to use it on a minor7b5 when the II-V pattern resolves to major (D-7(b5)-G7(b9)-Cmaj7), since the natural 2 on the locrian natural 2 is the major third of the target tonic, but you can always do it on minor II-V's too, and it will sound hip.

As for the other modes, I guess lydian augmented is useful on occasion for being played over major 7 #5 chords, and mixolydian b13 would be a good choice over secondary dominants, probably V7/II in a major key. I'm not sure what I'd use Dorian b9 for.

+ 10 Good explanation of Modes of MMi. I like MMi and use the scale and mainly the Lydian b7 and Altered modes from it. I first learned Lydian b7 it was called the Overtone scale because it matches the overtone series. It is my default scale for dominant chords because like Lydian it handles the 4th that would an avoid note or require special handling. Plus only one note difference between MMi and Dorian so can take all my Dorian finger patterns and change one note and have MMi patterns. Two for price of one.

[Scot]

These are a few examples of instances/tunes where the melodic minor scale *can* sound good to my ears:

-melodic minor (1st mode): a minor chord with a major 7 such as the first chord in the tune Solar.

-altered (7th mode): functioning Dominant chord in practically any tune.

-lydian dominant (4th mode): non-functioning dominant such as the second chord of "Girl From Ipanema" and "Take The 'A' Train" or bar 8 of "Stella By Starlight".

-locrian #2 (6th mode): minor 7 b5 chord that isn't the first chord in a minor ii v such as bar 11 of "500 Miles High"

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by DocBop

I first learned Lydian b7 it was called the Overtone scale because it matches the overtone series.

Hmm, please elaborate. I'm at work right now and I don't have a chance to write it out and look at it.

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by Scot

These are a few examples of instances/tunes where the melodic minor scale *can* sound good to my ears:

-melodic minor (1st mode): a minor chord with a major 7 such as the first chord in the tune Solar.

-altered (7th mode): functioning Dominant chord in practically any tune.

-lydian dominant (4th mode): non-functioning dominant such as the second chord of "Girl From Ipanema" and "Take The 'A' Train" or bar 8 of "Stella By Starlight".

-locrian #2 (6th mode): minor 7 b5 chord that isn't the first chord in a minor ii v such as bar 11 of "500 Miles High"

Where would chords like these appear?

I understand the Locrian #2 and the Altered. Please explain when a min chord with a maj7 or 6 would appear. Also please explain on the Lydian Dominant mode too, thank you.

[The_Orlonater]

Playing all the MM modes on the V chord would work too.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Where would chords like these appear?

I gave very specific examples of tunes where they would appear. Try to re-read my post and let me know if you still can't see where they would appear. Break out a good fake book if necessary.

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

I understand the Locrian #2 and the Altered. Please explain when a min chord with a maj7 or 6 would appear.

Again, check out the the Miles Davis tune "Solar".

The first chord is a C minor but the melody is using the root, major 7, 9 and 5. C melodic minor can work beautifully over this C minor chord on Solar, whether or not the chord symbol in a fake book or on a chart specifies a major 7 or a 6. It's VERY common to hear soloists use C melodic minor over that first chord on Solar and it's also VERY common to hear piano players play a C minor with a major 7.

I think you may be getting a little bogged down here. A natural 6 sounds good on most minor chords, whether or not a chord symbol on a chart or in a fake book specifies it. Your best bet for learning how to use melodic minor in your solos is to listen and transcribe to see how the master improvisers use it. The trick is to know where it CAN be played (re-read mine and other posts) and use your ears to decide if it is appropriate to play it.

Does that clarify things any?

[Scot]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Playing all the MM modes on the V chord would work too.

OK, now you just lost me.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Also please explain on the Lydian Dominant mode too, thank you.

First off, do you know the difference between a functioning and a non-functioning Dominant chord?

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Hmm, please elaborate. I'm at work right now and I don't have a chance to write it out and look at it.

The notes in the lydian b7 scale are, when arranged in scalar form, are the first 11 partials of the harmonic series.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmoni...es_%28music%29

This is the basis of George Russel's "Lydian chromatic concept", although there are some problems with temperment (the #4, for example, is actually somewhere in between 4 and #4, leaning to #4.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

This is the basis of George Russel's "Lydian chromatic concept"

Oh man, I get a headache just thinking about that book!

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

The notes in the lydian b7 scale are, when arranged in scalar form, are the first 11 partials of the harmonic series.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmoni...es_%28music%29

This is the basis of George Russel's "Lydian chromatic concept", although there are some problems with temperment (the #4, for example, is actually somewhere in between 4 and #4, leaning to #4.

Hmm.

1. Root
2. p8
3. p5
4. p8
5. M3
6. P5
7. very b7
8. p8
9. M2
10 M3
11.... Probably around M3 or p4?

1 2 3 (4) 5 b7

I guess it's missing a 6 and the 4 is really iffy (as you say) 8:11 isn't 3:4, but if you're willing to wait for 8:12 then you've got it. Also the b7 is highly suspect since the 7th overtone isn't really used.

So did someone try to come up with a scale that matched the overtone series and say "Hey, this works!" or did someone mess with the scale and say "Hey, this sort of matches the overtone series!"

Anyway, our 12 tone system is so poor at representing this stuff that unless you're going microtonal, it's sort of academic.

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by Scot

OK, now you just lost me.

Yeah, my explanations suck at times. What I meant was, that if you play G altered you can also try playing Ab MM ,or Bb Dorian b9? I may be wrong in my explanations so just correct me..

I'm not sure on this, it's actually a question. Might add some cool flavor to your soloing.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Yeah, my explanations suck at times. What I meant was, that if you play G altered you can also try playing Ab MM ,or Bb Dorian b9? I may be wrong in my explanations so just correct me..

I'm not sure on this, it's actually a question. Might add some cool flavor to your soloing.

Ah, I see what you mean. Good question.

Try it and let your ears be the judge. It's always good to know the relationships. For example, someone might play a G triad on a C major chord and will be thinking "G triad" over a C major while someone else might play that same G triad on the same C chord but will think 5, 7 and 9 of a C major. They're the same notes and it's good to be able to see the relationships.

Try it and let your ears be the judge.

[EADG mx]

The altered scale works well over (surprise) altered chords.

let's take a look at B altered

B C D Eb F G A B

you can see how it contains notes from B7 (B Eb A). No fifth but that's arguably an easily omitable chord tone.

You also get:

C - b9
D - #9
F - b5
G - #5

since by definition an altered chord is a dom7 with at least one altered (lowered or raised) 5 or 9, and you have all of those pitches available in the scale, no matter what the altered chord contains you're going to be covered. You just might have to be selective over which pitches you place emphasis on.

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

The altered scale works well over (surprise) altered chords.

let's take a look at B altered

B C D Eb F G A B

you can see how it contains notes from B7 (B Eb A). No fifth but that's arguably an easily omitable chord tone.

You also get:

C - b9
D - #9
F - b5
G - #5

since by definition an altered chord is a dom7 with at least one altered (lowered or raised) 5 or 9, and you have all of those pitches available in the scale, no matter what the altered chord contains you're going to be covered. You just might have to be selective over which pitches you place emphasis on.

Breaking up scales is always fun to see what chords exist in them

Also, making up your own chords from a certain scale ,or mode is fun too.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Breaking up scales is always fun to see what chords exist in them

No better way to see what will work where other than your ears, imo.

[HaVIC5]

This is slightly OT, but at Berklee they teach something called the "composite minor", which is a rather technical concept, but the same concept applies and is taught in classical music pedagogy, albeit in a slight different way and for different ends. Basically, it teaches that in practice, when you're dealing with a contemporary (pop, jazz, rock, etc) composition in a minor key, you're actually dealing with ALL of the minors at one time, each one yielding particular harmonies and melodies for different purposes. For each type of minor (natural, harmonic, melodic), you have diatonic chord structures and can use any one of them and still sound "minor", but some are more common than others for a variety of reasons. Emboldened are the most common ones.

Natural:
I-7 (eh, not as common in practice, since I-6 sounds more "tonic-like". On lead sheets you'll have I-7 chords, but chances are the pianist will be playing the natural sixth versus the minor 7th)
II-7b5
bIIImaj7
IV-7
V-7
bVImaj7
bVII7

Harmonic
I-(maj7) (chances are this chord symbol implies more a melodic minor sound than a harmonic minor sound)
II-7(b5)
bIIImaj7(#5)
IV-7
V7(b9)
bVImaj7
VIIo7

Melodic Minor
I-(maj7), I-6
II-7
bIIImaj7(#5)
IV7
V7(9)
VI-7(b5)
VII-7(b5)

Oh, and yeah, I just remembered what a dorian b9 would be used for, although its rather a rare instance. If you have a major II-V pattern, like II-7 V7(9) resolving deceptive to a minor chord, you would have at your disposal likely the Dorian b9 for the II-7, and the mixolydian b13 for the V.

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

This is slightly OT, but at Berklee they teach something called the "composite minor", which is a rather technical concept, but the same concept applies and is taught in classical music pedagogy, albeit in a slight different way and for different ends. Basically, it teaches that in practice, when you're dealing with a contemporary (pop, jazz, rock, etc) composition in a minor key, you're actually dealing with ALL of the minors at one time, each one yielding particular harmonies and melodies for different purposes. For each type of minor (natural, harmonic, melodic), you have diatonic chord structures and can use any one of them and still sound "minor", but some are more common than others for a variety of reasons. Emboldened are the most common ones.

Natural:
I-7 (eh, not as common in practice, since I-6 sounds more "tonic-like". On lead sheets you'll have I-7 chords, but chances are the pianist will be playing the natural sixth versus the minor 7th)
II-7b5
bIIImaj7
IV-7
V-7
bVImaj7
bVII7

Harmonic
I-(maj7) (chances are this chord symbol implies more a melodic minor sound than a harmonic minor sound)
II-7(b5)
bIIImaj7(#5)
IV-7
V7(b9)
bVImaj7
VIIo7

Melodic Minor
I-(maj7), I-6
II-7
bIIImaj7(#5)
IV7
V7(9)
VI-7(b5)
VII-7(b5)

Oh, and yeah, I just remembered what a dorian b9 would be used for, although its rather a rare instance. If you have a major II-V pattern, like II-7 V7(9) resolving deceptive to a minor chord, you would have at your disposal likely the Dorian b9 for the II-7, and the mixolydian b13 for the V.

That was cool read, thanks!

Sightly off topic, but do you know of any jazz written in Melodic Minor and it's modes. Just the MM, no Major.