the use of the pentatonic scale

[cactus waltz]

The pentatonic scales, both minor and major, are like their respective diatonic scales only two tones shorter. So why is that a riff is percieved as pentatonic and not just a variation of the diatonic that doesn't use the full scale?

And what is the point of omitting tones anyway -- especially for the major pentatonic, which doesn't include the 7.

I have seen the pentatonic scales get called "bread and butter" for making bass lines and riffs, but it doesn't seem, to me, to be more effective than using chord notes (R, 3, 5, 7, 8) and then adding chromatic notes or the rest of the diatonic scale notes when appropriate.

[OOZMAN]

I thought they were mainly for soloing... But I have found that any riff from a pentatonic scale sounds good, and its easier to remember around the neck. I find them limiting though, because they only have 5 notes, like you said.

[J-B'ass]

Originally Posted by cactus waltz

So why is that a riff is percieved as pentatonic and not just a variation of the diatonic that doesn't use the full scale?

Sometimes it is a diatonic riff that happens to be from the pentatonic scale, but sometimes the pentatonic scale involved isn't diatonic; you could play E minor Pentatonic over an E7 chord for example.

Originally Posted by cactus waltz

And what is the point of omitting tones anyway -- especially for the major pentatonic, which doesn't include the 7.

The historical reason the 7th and 4th are omitted from the major pentatonic scale is probably just because that's what sounds good. The theory that attempts to explain this is that the 7th and 4th are each a semitone away from another scale tone, and so they create a lot of harmonic "pull" towards those tones. The 7th 'wants' to resolve up to the root. But the role of the pentatonic scale isn't to illustrate harmonic movement, it's to create lyrical phrases on top of whatever harmony's going on, so having every interval in the scale be either a 2nd or a minor 3rd helps it to flow without involving too much tension and resolution.


You could think of pentatonic phrases as being "diatonic with notes missing" or "chord tones", but that isn't true of every pentatonic phrase, and the general concept of a pentatonic scale is useful anyway. Useful enough that even when the phrase is completely diatonic, it's still good to recognise it as a pentatonic phrase.

[cactus waltz]

If I interpret your post correctly, then the pentatonic scale is appropriate for creating a melody that is non-obtrusive in nautre, in that it doesn't complicate the mood of the song or the tensions in it?

[fractiouslowend]

Originally Posted by cactus waltz

If I interpret your post correctly, then the pentatonic scale is appropriate for creating a melody that is non-obtrusive in nautre, in that it doesn't complicate the mood of the song or the tensions in it?

i think that pretty much sums it up
it does work over pretty much anything

[thefruitfarmer]

Originally Posted by fractiouslowend

i think that pretty much sums it up
it does work over pretty much anything

IIRC the pentatonic scale appears in many, if not all, cultures that have produced music. It is a "natural" scale that appears in Chinese and Indian music as well as Western music.

I am sure someone else knows more about this than I do and give a more complete answer.

[MalcolmAmos]

IMHO -- Why the pentatonic works. For the melody line and the chord line to harmonize they should share like notes. The pentatonic will have three chord tones and two safe passing notes, thus is a safe bet.

I only use pentatonic when I get lost or having trouble working out the chord changes. Understand I'm Country and simple chord tone bass lines with chromatic runs to the next chord rule my World.

Now to your riff question.
My choice of a bass line does revolve around the 1-3-5-7. And when I'm using a pentatonic I do tend on playing the pentatonic in scale order, however, when I'm thinking chord tone for the bass line I only use the number of notes from the chord tone that is necessary to build the groove. Root only or R-5 get a lot of use. I do like 3's and 8's also.

Recapping the difference in a riff and a pentatonic. IMHO riffs build a groove, pentatonics build a feel (more melodic). I tend to leave the melodic to the other instruments - not going into that being good or bad. With seven note scale or a mode I have trouble having room for the seven notes - that's just me. Now I will use a "longer riff" like R-3-5-6-8-7-6-5 or something like that, but, I think of that being a riff of the scale notes, not running notes of the scale. I know, I know ....

But that melodic feel seems to set the pentatonic into another catagory from a 4/4 time four note riff.

Good question.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by J-B'ass

Sometimes it is a diatonic riff that happens to be from the pentatonic scale, but sometimes the pentatonic scale involved isn't diatonic; you could play E minor Pentatonic over an E7 chord for example.



The historical reason the 7th and 4th are omitted from the major pentatonic scale is probably just because that's what sounds good. The theory that attempts to explain this is that the 7th and 4th are each a semitone away from another scale tone, and so they create a lot of harmonic "pull" towards those tones. The 7th 'wants' to resolve up to the root. But the role of the pentatonic scale isn't to illustrate harmonic movement, it's to create lyrical phrases on top of whatever harmony's going on, so having every interval in the scale be either a 2nd or a minor 3rd helps it to flow without involving too much tension and resolution.

+1

Because the 2 half-tones that resolve are not there it makes the scale a bit more "hollow" and floating. This is why for soloing you can use up to three different pentatonic scales to bring more colors or extensions to the chord you are playing on. Plus, this scale is perfect for bass because it is really easy to play and make patterns from it.

[Deluge Of Sound]

It's the best scale for metal.

[Spin Doctor]

Many people don't notice there are 5 pentatonic scales that can be played from any given key. Most talk about the major (built on the 1st scale degree) and the minor (built on the 6th scale degree). There are 3 other pentonics within a key center built on the 2nd, 3rd and 5th scale degrees. The 5th degree is super important in rock whereas the 1st and 6th get talked about a lot in blues.

One interesting thing to me is that all of the notes of the major and minor pentatonic scales are exactly the same. In fact all of the notes of any pentatonic of a given key center are exactly the same. So what this allows is to give you various positions of the fretboard to work from.

Onto something different...

So, If you listen to BB Kings music, it has that happy-go-lucky sound that comes from mainly playing off the 1st degree major pentatonic and its associated pentatonic scale degrees. But if you start the same riff from the same note and play the 6th degree minor pentatonic (and its associated modes, i.e. scale degrees), you get the dark gritty sound of the blues.

Edit: I read this and it needs a lot of clarifying. Dunno if I can even do that, but...

Say you're playing a blues riff and it starts on C. The tune is in C, so if you play the 1st degree pentatonic, the "major" pentatonic, its gonna have that light ,happy sound. That's because you matched the tonal center of the riff to the tonal center of the tune.

So now you are playing the same tune in C, but you decide you want a gritty sound. You play the riff, still starting on C, but you play a 6th degree pentatonic shape off that C, the minor pentatonic, to get the dark sound. The reason it sounds like that is that you are playing the riff from a different tonal center.

You can also switch between the "light" and "dark" sound by playing your riffs, or patterns, etc up by a minor 3rd. So say you are riffin' on 'F', playing the first degree pentatonic. and the tune is in 'F'. So you got the light sound going... The BB King Sound. Now play the same 1st degree pent up a minor 3rd, so you start it from the Ab. Now you will have the dark, SRV sound. You should learn to switch from light to dark at will, to give your stuff some flavor.

There is one other way to switch from light and dark pentatonics, but I'm out of time...

[bassybill]

You want to know about pentatonic scales? Watch this - worth 3 minutes of your time, guaranteed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

Just interesting is all.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by cactus waltz

but it doesn't seem, to me, to be more effective than using chord notes (R, 3, 5, 7, 8) and then adding chromatic notes or the rest of the diatonic scale notes when appropriate.

Chord tones + passing tones is definitely the bets way to solidly outline the harmony.

But the great thing about pentatonic scales is that, not only do they not clash with the chord, but they rarely clash with any of the typical chords in a given key. So If your bass-ing along under a chord progression and you have a few beats or bars to whip out some melodic or funky riff / fill / turnaround, a pentatonic scale is a 90% safe bet. Also great for traveling up or down when connecting 2 parts in different positions on the neck.

in short : chord tones+ passing tones for support, pentatonic for riff-age.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by bassybill

You want to know about pentatonic scales? Watch this - worth 3 minutes of your time, guaranteed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

Just interesting is all.

Another cool video on the pentatonic, from Jimmy Haslip's perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACeTkn69tGE

[Infidelity]

Originally Posted by bassybill

You want to know about pentatonic scales? Watch this - worth 3 minutes of your time, guaranteed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

Just interesting is all.

damn! that explains everything..

[Spin Doctor]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Chord tones + passing tones is definitely the bets way to solidly outline the harmony.

But the great thing about pentatonic scales is that, not only do they not clash with the chord, but they rarely clash with any of the typical chords in a given key. So If your bass-ing along under a chord progression and you have a few beats or bars to whip out some melodic or funky riff / fill / turnaround, a pentatonic scale is a 90% safe bet. Also great for traveling up or down when connecting 2 parts in different positions on the neck.

in short : chord tones+ passing tones for support, pentatonic for riff-age.

Yep... Gets my vote...

[bottomzone]

Originally Posted by bassybill

You want to know about pentatonic scales? Watch this - worth 3 minutes of your time, guaranteed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

Just interesting is all.

Very cool!!!!! A great illustration of how important the pentatonic scale is not only to musicians, but listeners as well!


A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!

[sammyp]

you're right ....the pentatonics can be linked to scales from diatonics ....mixolydian for the maj pentatonic and dorian for the minor but ....

to answer your question! why do they have their own identity? is because they have their own "sound" and "flavor" which has been with us sinse the days of Robert Johnson and probably earlier!

in country, blues, rock we hear more pentatonic maj and minor than we do the full diatonic scales ...so that's why they have their own identity - it's always been this way.

on a technical level, as primarliy a guitarist and secondly a bass player, i feel you are right ....the pents are more for soloing and chord knowledge/diatonics is where bass lines should be written from!

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by sammyp

in country, blues, rock we hear more pentatonic maj and minor than we do the full diatonic scales ...so that's why they have their own identity - it's always been this way.

on a technical level, as primarliy a guitarist and secondly a bass player, i feel you are right ....the pents are more for soloing and chord knowledge/diatonics is where bass lines should be written from!

Being Country and Classic Country at that I also feel this way. Pentatonic warms me up and lets me get back on track when I get lost but in my 4/4 Major world I'm more at ease with chord tone bass lines. Course in my neck of the woods a R-5 with chromatic runs to the next chord is King.

[cire113]

Pentatonics are the king

[puddin tame]

Well why don't we just say all music ever is just a variation of the chromatic scale?