"Useless" knowledge?

[esoomssab]

I'm starting this thread based on some thoughts I had from the "Arpeggio Diagrams" page.

Why is it that it seems so many people seem to be interested in things like modes and arpeggio charts and other such things when it is something that is impractical for most needing to ask the questions. To clarify - I wouldn't be seeking out lists of advanced calculus formulas while in the middle of a basic algebra course. The ability to list and memorize the formula does me no good, because I still don't know how to use them.

I'm not saying arpeggios and modes are super advanced or anything on that level. To take the "Arpeggio Diagram" example, the original poster seemed interested in a diagram of an arpeggio video he saw on youtube. Dismissing any communication problems that may have existed in that specific thread, the poster seemed less interested in the knowledge and its application than the actual chart. Many people attempted to discern what knowledge he was actually after, but he couldn't describe it or provide information to clear up what he was looking for.

This tells me that the poster needs to take a few steps back and study some more basic theory before attempting to grasp the exercise he was watching. But, more generally, from the perspective of an instructor, how do you approach students seeking knowledge that they're not necessarily "ready" for? Scales and modes seem to be a big deal for a lot of people around here, and most lack the foundation in musical knowledge needed to use such concepts. How do you tell somebody that this thing that they think is super important to their musical development, really isn't at this current moment in time?

Also, are people interested in them simply because they need something to practice and don't know what to do? Do they think memorizing a bunch of modes will make them a better player?

It's something difficult for me to grasp - both why people want these things when it's not something that they can truly apply without building a more solid foundation musically, and how as a teacher/instructor/someone who knows the stuff should approach people who ask it. Hoping some different perspectives will help me both empathize with people on the opposite end (those asking the questions) and to be able to help them better

[JimmyM]

i'm not against arpeggio practice because it's chordal in nature and i think plunging into how chords are formed from scales early on is great. but there is a certain order to teach it that works better than others, so i just start with the basics and i don't even address that with the student. i just take it as a given that they're there to learn, so rather than discuss my philosophy, i just start teaching.

[Chris K]

I got into this discussion several times. The general rule is: a student is ready to learn if he asks for it. To not give what he asks for is demotivating. Should you feel that he or she is asking for stuff too far ahead, you will have to show them a path to reach that further away goal without putting them down.

The big problem here on TB is that relative newbees read very sophistcated posts on theory (or technique) and get to think they are either on the wrong track or far behind. The teacher's role is to provide a helicopter view of what is to be done in which order, to design an individual plan not FOR, but WITH each student.

The other side of the problem is that some TB members underestimate the problem of assessing what those newbee posters really need and start to show off everything they know. That might be impressive, though not helpful.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i'm not against arpeggio practice because it's chordal in nature and i think plunging into how chords are formed from scales early on is great. but there is a certain order to teach it that works better than others, so i just start with the basics and i don't even address that with the student. i just take it as a given that they're there to learn, so rather than discuss my philosophy, i just start teaching.

Hey Jim, do you ever sleep?

+1, my friend.

And let us not forget the different ways people REMEMBER stuff. There is absolutely nothing wrong with activating visual memory to learn chords ...

[steelhead2]

just practising apeggios myself,,3 great posts,all 3 of witch is nearly beyond me in a large sense since i can get lost practising scales chords runs etc and not have as much fun as jamming and learning the neck (so to speak) or tweaking what i have to find a tone i want to sound like-in other words-keep it fun,,,go fishing,,take a nap,do some yardwork

heck i got lost trying to find some `Blackmore's Rainbow' tone with my amp and bass tonight(i never did and after 45 minutes i gave up,finished my ale and ate dinner),,,it's monday,tomorrow WILL be a better day fer sure

peace/all

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Hey Jim, do you ever sleep?

+1, my friend.

And let us not forget the different ways people REMEMBER stuff. There is absolutely nothing wrong with activating visual memory to learn chords ...

that's true. chord shapes are a good thing to learn in the beginning if they help you remember them and you don't get totally dependent on them.

and it only looks like i never sleep since i was in the west coast all weekend and got jet lag

[IvanMike]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that arpeggios, scales and modes aren't calculus, not even algebra. they're the musical analogue of addition.

[JDHolmes]

Originally Posted by Chris K

I got into this discussion several times. The general rule is: a student is ready to learn if he asks for it. To not give what he asks for is demotivating. Should you feel that he or she is asking for stuff too far ahead, you will have to show them a path to reach that further away goal without putting them down.

The big problem here on TB is that relative newbees read very sophistcated posts on theory (or technique) and get to think they are either on the wrong track or far behind. The teacher's role is to provide a helicopter view of what is to be done in which order, to design an individual plan not FOR, but WITH each student.

The other side of the problem is that some TB members underestimate the problem of assessing what those newbee posters really need and start to show off everything they know. That might be impressive, though not helpful.

(I agree with you)

As a lifelong student of a lot of different things and an educator for many many years, I KNOW HOW I LEARN. While that may not be the same for all or even most students, it is important for the teacher to know how their student learns to effectively present lessons. Part of the issue is that music teachers (that I've had) present lessons in a manner they learned in or in their learning style, often frustrating students and driving them away due to frustration level activities.

Since I know how to learn and how I learn, I'm interested in the theory (even if too complex for me to create at the time) and I MUST understand how things fit together. If I don't see how things fit together, I spend more time not learning that I do learning.

I recently left a teacher because he consistently told me I didn't need to know things now and we spent most of my lesson time listening to him play. If you are a teaching bass, it would be a good thing if you spent an hour researching the different learning styles and spending a bit of time early with a student determining what that students learning style is and then tailoring his lessons to meet that style rather than trying to round peg him into your learning style/teaching technique.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by JDHolmes

(I agree with you)
Part of the issue is that music teachers (that I've had) present lessons in a manner they learned in or in their learning style, often frustrating students and driving them away due to frustration level activities.......
If you are teaching bass, it would be a good thing if you spent an hour researching the different learning styles and spending a bit of time early with a student determining what that students learning style is and then tailoring his lessons to meet that style rather than trying to round peg him into your learning style/teaching technique.

Great book on that subject. http://www.amazon.com/Adult-Learner-.../dp/0884151158
Have fun.

[Minotauros]

Originally Posted by Chris K

The general rule is: a student is ready to learn if he asks for it. To not give what he asks for is demotivating.

+1. I ran into this with a former (guitar) teacher. I wanted to learn about transposing which he said was not pertinent to my type of playing (rhythm); it was like pulling teeth to get to learn chord triads.

Basically my "lessons" consisted of tabbing out songs I burned to cd from my iTunes collection that I wanted to learn. But you have to learn how to play music before you can play a song, if you get my drift.

I was getting discouraged, especially when a comment was made "well, you could look it up on Youtube". I withdrew from lessons and took it upon myself to learn the scales, triads, how to invert chords, transpose, and now apply that to playing and even creating bass lines (at the low end only since Christmas).

The big problem here on TB is that relative newbees read very sophistcated posts on theory (or technique) and get to think they are either on the wrong track or far behind.

...

The other side of the problem is that some TB members underestimate the problem of assessing what those newbee posters really need and start to show off everything they know. That might be impressive, though not helpful.

I have found that to be the case. I've read posts that had me shaking my head thinking "why am I even considering handling a bass much less trying to play it?" and feeling pretty stupid. It was only when I approached a third party with a copy of a particular post that I was told that post was simply a "show out" type of post.

To give credit due, there are a number of guys including Chris K and MalcolmAmos (and a bunch of others) who have explained things in really simple and effective terms and restored my confidence in my ability to learn bass.

Originally Posted by IvanMike

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that arpeggios, scales and modes aren't calculus, not even algebra. they're the musical analogue of addition.

I think modes falls into that analogy of addition much less than scales. At least at my level of understanding and bass playing. Scales and chords and their triads are essential for playing, but I'm not sure how a beginning bass player would fit using modes into the scheme of things. I for one, as a beginner, would not be improvising, which I've been told is really what one would be doing with modes. I could be wrong and would like to know more, but that's my understanding.

[Fergie Fulton]

The OP in the Arpeggio thread had trouble explaining himself because he could not represent the idea in his head on to paper, a very common problem we all have at sometime, so not unusual at all in learning.
Getting information out of order is the biggest problem the internet gives us. new or young players see a youtube video of someone who has been playing for 20 years and take that as their starting point and then get frustrated because they cannot get up to speed LOL.
All they see is the result, not the foundation or the reason behind it.

The notes of an arpeggio are the same whether learned by watching, listening or reading. It makes no difference if that reading is tab, notation, a diagram or just the letter names.
What we have is sound and it is represented in many ways, there are approved and accepted ways to learn but we are not all the same. Once something is learned it is easy to apply if you want to do so. A tabbed arpeggio once learned is easy to apply to notation, you have done the work, all you are doing is changing its representation through application.

In counting the second number and the third number in most languages equals the fifth number, when all know that because that's how we learned it, we know that part. If say it was Spanish you were to learn you do not learn to count,you know that, you learn to represent it in Spanish.
And so it is with music, you learn it in order to represent it, by either playing, writing or explaining it.



Information is not useless if it has an application, and sometimes that is not instantaneously obvious.

It soon becomes obvious that you do not know what your doing or can't do it when it is required thou.

[Mark Wilson]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Information is not useless if it has an application, and sometimes that is not instantaneously obvious.

Couldn't be more true!

[IvanMike]

Originally Posted by Minotauros

I think modes falls into that analogy of addition much less than scales. At least at my level of understanding and bass playing. Scales and chords and their triads are essential for playing, but I'm not sure how a beginning bass player would fit using modes into the scheme of things. I for one, as a beginner, would not be improvising, which I've been told is really what one would be doing with modes. I could be wrong and would like to know more, but that's my understanding.

well the thing is modes ARE scales. They're just built off different notes of the Major scale as the root. They become important awful fast when playing/analyzing a song, regardless of what you are playing, (chords, solos, chord tones, bass lines, etc) as you end up knowing in advance what the notes/chords you can play are and WHY. It beats fumbling around (gee is this chord minor or major? Diminished?) when learning a song. It also helps you remember the changes/notes in a song a lot faster. Modes aren't as scary as they look. $5 hint, most minor songs end up being dorian. you can pay me whenever........

[Minotauros]

Originally Posted by IvanMike

well the thing is modes ARE scales. They're just built off different notes of the Major scale as the root.

Ha! You know, I said that once a few months ago. I referred to them as "displaced scales", taking that from a description at another site, though it may be a little simplistic. I also said they start on a different note of the major scale. So we do see them the same way. I was expecting something deeper, more metaphysical and esoteric. Thanks.

[esoomssab]

First off, thanks to everyone so far, many of your responses have helped to kind of put me in my place with pigeon holing some people.

Just saying scales and modes was probably a mistake on my part in the first post - the major and minor scales should probably be in the rotation for beginning learners. But isn't that algebra when considering addition and counting are things like learning the names of notes, how to read music, how to count rhythms, what keys and key signatures are, and the relationships of the notes to each other? Or even just learning where the notes are on the neck of a bass? To me, all of those things are much more fundamental than learning a scale, because to truly learn and understand a scale, you should really know all of those other things. So I don't necessarily think that it was too much of a stretch to say that scales and modes were "beyond" where most people should be attempting to learn.

I'm still struggling with this idea that if someone asks for it, they should learn it. I'm not saying learning is a bad thing, at all, and if someone is seeking out knowledge, that's definitely a good thing. But I'm thinking more along the lines of the people who are after a diagram or scale simply because that's what it is. When someone posts, "well I've learned my C# Lydian, what the heck do I do with it?", to me that seems backwards.

Maybe the issue I'm having is the tablature culture. More people are interested in a paint by numbers approach to playing than learning music. (I'm trying not to "say" that condescendingly) - I learned about music before I ever touched a bass, and never had some of the questions many guys seem to have about learning things on bass. I know that people learn in many different ways, and I would never try to force people into my "teaching box." The stories people have told about bad teachers to me are just that - bad teachers.

So, I guess, after all that, my question becomes, what is the best way to encourage people to learn the music necessary to teach them what they say they want to know?

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by esoomssab

So, I guess, after all that, my question becomes, what is the best way to encourage people to learn the music necessary to teach them what they say they want to know?

In all teaching its about creating an environment where the student wants to learn more, the students natural curiosity i harnessed. That is the greatest asset in any student, their desire to understand, and in any teacher their desire to understand their student.
It may not happen as they go along, at some points along the way they have to take a leap of faith and learn something that if not fully understood, becomes clear later...it is a foundation to later learning.... Wipe on, wax off Daniel san LOL.

[JimmyM]

ya, can't motivate the unmotivated.

[VinKreepo]

I think the person in that thread wanted every chart made out for him instead of making them himself. That means he wanted us a separate chart for:

A major, A minor, A aug, A dim, A major 7th, A minor 7th, A# major, A# minor, A# aug, A# dim, A# major 7th, A# minor 7th, B major, B minor, B aug, B dim, B major 7th, B minor 7th, C major, C minor, C aug, C dim, C major 7th, C minor 7th, C# major, C# minor, C# aug, C# dim, C# major 7th, C# minor 7th, D major, D minor, D aug, D dim, D major 7th, D minor 7th, D# major, D# minor, D# aug, D# dim, D# major 7th, D# minor 7th, E major, E minor, E aug, E dim, E major 7th, E minor 7th, F major, F minor, F aug, F dim, F major 7th, F minor 7th, F# major, F# minor, F# aug, F# dim, F# major 7th, F# minor 7th, G major, G minor, G aug, G dim, G major 7th, G minor 7th, G# major, G# minor, G# aug, G# dim, G# major 7th, G# minor 7th... just to get him started

Yeahhhhhhh not happening

[Warfender]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

that's true. chord shapes are a good thing to learn in the beginning if they help you remember them and you don't get totally dependent on them.

and it only looks like i never sleep since i was in the west coast all weekend and got jet lag

Jimmmy,
where where you at on the West Coast? I'm out here so I'm just curious.

cheers.

[JimmyM]

probably should have said western time zone...wasn't really on the coast...i was in sandpoint, idaho.