Using 16th notes for effect

ishouldbeking · #1 11-06-2008, 01:04 PM

An issue recently arose at band practice where I was messing around with a riff for a new song, and I threw in an accented triplet of 16th notes... and my guitarist turned to me and was like "god, don't ever do that... it sounds terrible!" But... I've been using those kind of flourishes in my basslines for years, and he may not realize it, but almost all of our songs have featured rapid moments of 16th notes, even if it's not always apparent. I'm wondering if this is one of those things that people generally think "shouldn't be done" in rock and roll, or maybe it was just one of those things that happened to stand out at the moment and sound bad to him.

A little background, our music is indie pop, built around a foundation of 60s pop and 50s rock, but with a darker almost progressive sense of structure, almost with the feel of something newer like Arcade Fire. Either way we have a lot of intricate instrumental bits, solos, bridges, etc. And I'm a full time pickplayer... i go for a Ric-like sound "big and round with some bite". When I incoporate 16th notes it's often in an almost flamenco way, not that i have any classical training, but in my head it's got some kind of a spanish feel to it. I'm mostly self taught, but i enjoy getting technical and melodic with my bass playing, and a lot of people have noticed that i tend to play the bass like a guitar, or maybe a baritone. Anyway... just wondering what you guys think?

PS. I'm gonna keep doing what comes naturally to myself anyway (playing 16th notes when and where I want), and i don't want this to turn into a guitard-bashing thread either, just curious on your individual opinions of what is and isn't permissable in a rock song.

Crazy Ivan · #2 11-06-2008, 01:13 PM

Use discretion and common sense. Sometimes you just need to lay down some straight quarters or whatever it may be.

Frankly, from the way you described your music, it sounds like you may be in the wrong. If you want to go playing that stuff, join a death metal band to get it out of your system.

EADG mx · #3 11-06-2008, 01:47 PM

What's permissible is what sounds good. Often fast, showy, random flourishes detract from the song, not add to it.

ishouldbeking · #4 11-06-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Ivan

Use discretion and common sense. Sometimes you just need to lay down some straight quarters or whatever it may be.

Frankly, from the way you described your music, it sounds like you may be in the wrong. If you want to go playing that stuff, join a death metal band to get it out of your system.

i appreciate the honesty. when i'm writing new parts i have a tendency to overplay as a way of exploring my options (my knowledge of theory is still pretty rudimentary, but slowly evolving... usually have to feel my way around for a little bit), but once i get a feel for the part/song as a whole I try to blend it in to the point where it blends with the rest of the band as much as possible, while still hopefully adding something. we have an odd dynamic... the songs themselves are written by our lead singer/guitarist, but i wind up writing a lot of the significant counter-melodies, which usually come about through exploration.

i think there's a good lesson in there though... discretion and common sense are key.

mutedeity · #5 11-06-2008, 06:47 PM

Personally I wouldn't listen to Crazy Ivan's advice. This is really an issue for you and your band. You can play it safe all you want, but do you think anyone got anywhere by following the formula and doing the thing that everyone else thought was the right thing to do?

Basically I see it like this, and depending on the setup of your band, if you have an idea and you are in charge of what you do in a song then you should probably fight for that idea if you think it's a good one. Just because you play "indie pop" doesn't mean you have to play it safe.

If you guitarist is the band leader and/or is paying you for your time then you really need to follow their lead, on the other hand.

Scot · #6 11-06-2008, 07:30 PM

I would say that anytime you decide to "throw something in" it's probably not good. Just a thought.

Scot · #7 11-06-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mutedeity

You can play it safe all you want, but do you think anyone got anywhere by following the formula and doing the thing that everyone else thought was the right thing to do?

Sure I do. They got gigs.

Of course it's not a bad thing to try to do something unique on the instrument. The key is to really know how to play the "formulas" first. The younger players often want to skip learning how to be a good "functioning" bassist and go right to being a bass hero. Most of those unique great bassists that we all know and love can play very functionally where required.

MyUsernameHere · #8 11-06-2008, 07:39 PM

I tend to agree with mutedeity. That said, a lot of stuff you experiment with will probably not sound right. Trial and error works that way. Could be that your guitarist heard something that you would probably hear if you listened to the song as a whole a couple of times.

However, there are always the guys out there who resent anyone taking away their perceived spotlight in a song...even for a second. Even if it makes the song better as a whole.

Ric5 · #9 11-06-2008, 07:51 PM

Actually a triplet would be a 12th note ... like blues in 12/8 ...

la-da-da ... la-da-da ... la-da-da ... la-da-da ...

Your band would just hate it when I play 32nd notes ...

I have little patience when band members tell me how to play ...

DaveF · #10 11-06-2008, 08:02 PM

I dunno man, I'd have to hear the lick to know if it's sweet or sour...
As a rule of thumb, "cramming" notes in usually ends up sounding too busy and ruining the groove.

Also, there's a lot of musical taste involved. It's not simply a matter of "16th notes = Win"

mutedeity · #11 11-06-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

I dunno man, I'd have to hear the lick to know if it's sweet or sour...
As a rule of thumb, "cramming" notes in usually ends up sounding too busy and ruining the groove.

Also, there's a lot of musical taste involved. It's not simply a matter of "16th notes = Win"

See that is where my point is though. Even if I heard it and thought I would do it differently, it's not really my thing to comment on and my commentary on it would just be an opinion. Hence why it's a matter for the OP and their band.

As for rules of thumb, that goes to what I said about playing it safe and doing what everyone else thinks is the right thing to do.

When it comes to having little patience for band members telling you what to play, it really depends on the situation. If you can't accept the input of others then you should probably understand that they probably won't want to listen to your ideas either. If you are in a situation where you are being paid or you are part of a project where there is a clear band leader with a sense of direction you aren't really going to get far with that attitude at all.

Case in point, I am the band leader in my main project. I write and direct all of the music and if something is played I don't think works there is next to no chance it will get played. Then again if I am playing a gig or session for someone and they tell me to play a certain way or not play something my response is "sure it's your call". I might offer an opinion or explanation as to why I did or didn't do a certain thing but at the end of it I give the client what they want. It gets me more work in the future too.

I'm guessing that the OP is in a more or less "democratic" band here, and you can correct me if I am wrong. In this case I would advise that they make their case clearly for what they are doing and why and let it be known to the guitarist that they always have the option of accommodating what the bass is doing rather than assume that the bass will naturally accommodate the rest of the band all the time. I wouldn't bother listening to rules of thumb but I would make sure you approach this kind of situation with a mind to resolve the situation for the good of the music.

barbarbass · #12 11-06-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric5

Actually a triplet would be a 12th note ... like blues in 12/8 ...

la-da-da ... la-da-da ... la-da-da ... la-da-da ...

Um, actually, it sounds like what you described would be eighth-note triplets . . . no such thing as a 12th note.

The bottom number describes the basic 'pulse' in a tempo, to wit, whole notes, half notes, quarters, eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds, sixty-fourths, and so on.

Maybe you were making a joke that i missed . . . ?

onlyclave · #13 11-06-2008, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric5

Actually a triplet would be a 12th note ... like blues in 12/8 ...

la-da-da ... la-da-da ... la-da-da ... la-da-da ...

Your band would just hate it when I play 32nd notes ...

I have little patience when band members tell me how to play ...

You and Mutedeity should form a band. You can play whatever you want and not care what others think. No one would listen to it, but hey, you don't care right? That's like, your statement, man.

And a 16-note triplet takes the space of 2 16th notes. It would be a 24-th note, if such a creature existed.

lemur821 · #14 11-07-2008, 12:17 AM

I take my bandmates' opinions with a grain of salt unless they're commenting on how something sounds in context. Especially if it's something I do all the time. Sounds to me like it just happened to stick out.

DogPlaysBass · #15 11-07-2008, 12:39 AM

ANYTHING in rock is permissible

hey · #16 11-07-2008, 12:41 AM

Protest The Hero has those strange little fast bass licks at random places too, and it gives the guitar lines more "oomph".

mutedeity · #17 11-07-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyclave

You and Mutedeity should form a band. You can play whatever you want and not care what others think. No one would listen to it, but hey, you don't care right? That's like, your statement, man.

And a 16-note triplet takes the space of 2 16th notes. It would be a 24-th note, if such a creature existed.

You are beyond belief at times, pal. Try reading what I say before you post your boneheaded responses that inaccurately portray what I have said.

I said that it's a matter for their band not for what other people on here think the rule of thumb is. In my main band I call all the shots because I write all of the music. Therefore yes I do get to play what I want and trust me my presumptuous little friend, there are plenty of people that would disagree with your assertion that no-one cares. Not that I need to justify myself to someone who has made a buffoon of themselves as many times as you anyway...Mr "resolve the 7th sideways".

onlyclave · #18 11-07-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mutedeity

You are beyond belief at times, pal. Try reading what I say before you post your boneheaded responses that inaccurately portray what I have said.

I said that it's a matter for their band not for what other people on here think the rule of thumb is. In my main band I call all the shots because I write all of the music. Therefore yes I do get to play what I want and trust me my presumptuous little friend, there are plenty of people that would disagree with your assertion that no-one cares. Not that I need to justify myself to someone who has made a buffoon of themselves as many times as you anyway...Mr "resolve the 7th sideways".

It's good to see you back.

ishouldbeking · #19 11-08-2008, 05:15 AM

in response to some of the questions above... yeah, we're in a "democratic" band. our lead singer / guitarist (who is the one who called me out, yes) is basically the band leader in that he brings most of the songs in to practice, but once they get there we collectively contribute and the structures usually change a bit by the time we're through. my main songwriting contributions usually come in the form of counter-melodies and a good deal of structural stuff.

oh, and when i said 16th note triplets I guess i'm displaying how little I remember of musical theory (i took piano for 11 years, but quit when i was 14... man does that stuff fade fast!). but what i meant was i sometimes play little flurries of 16th notes (3 at a time) as an accent, usually when i'm playing a melodic part, and typically on the higher strings. i know fast little runs can get "blurry" at times, and i only rarely do them on the lower notes. i guess my main reason for asking this question is because I don't consider myself to be a traditional bass player nor do i feel like I have any kind of mastery over straight-forward rock bass playing... i was just curious if there was some general rule about this kind of thing (you know, like "oh man, there's a reason why you shouldn't do that..."). Just curious is all.

atheos · #20 11-08-2008, 05:30 AM

The only "rule" is to make the song sound like what it should in your and your band mates' opinion.

Really, you can do whatever you want and it sounds either good, bad or something in between. Of course you might want to aim for what sounds good, duh. But the decision is yours and your band mates alone.