Using flats vs. sharps when writing scales

[Sinestra]

I'm teaching myself some basic music theory and something has been bothering me for a while.

Say I want to write the Eb Maj scale, which (if I'm correct) is:

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

If I want to convert to minor, I move down everything besides R, 4, 5 and 8 down a half step, right?

Eb E Gb Ab Eb B Db Eb

Here's where I'm confused...does it matter if you use C# vs. Db? I realize it won't matter to me since I'll be playing the right now, but I'd still like to know to keep myself in line with the music theory.

[Hollywars]

Depends on the key signature and whether it uses # or b's.

[bassinplace]

edit

[lowfreq33]

It should be Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb

[Nashrakh]

Ah, the circle of fifths. Learn it, love it.

[touji]

It's been taught to me that whenever you write out a scale, you never repeat letters.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Here's where I'm confused...does it matter if you use C# vs. Db? I realize it won't matter to me since I'll be playing the right now, but I'd still like to know to keep myself in line with the music theory.

Sharps go around the circle of 5ths
Flats go around the circle of 4ths.
Normally the chart has sharps going clockwise.
Normally the chart has flats going counter clockwise - I've seen it both ways.

OK that out of the way......... Look at the bottom of the circle. B & Cb are together as are F# & Gb, i.e. share the same space on the chart. IMHO makes since to use the one with the lesser sharps or flats and that is what the chart did. They show the B and not the Cb. As C# has 7 sharps and Db has 5 flats the chart used the Db, and that makes since to me - to use the Db because there are fewer accidents. As F# & Gb both have the same amount - your choice - the chart likes the Gb - I can not give you a reason why.

Back to your question about C# or Db. If others are involved probably best to go with the Db.

[somegeezer]

Do you mean mixing flats and sharps in the same scale? Because that is a no no. It doesn't make much difference if all of them are the same though. The general rule though, is that left of the circle of fifths are written in flats and the right of the circle are written using sharps.

[251]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I'm teaching myself some basic music theory and something has been bothering me for a while.

Say I want to write the Eb Maj scale, which (if I'm correct) is:

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

If I want to convert to minor, I move down everything besides R, 4, 5 and 8 down a half step, right?

Eb E Gb Ab Eb B Db Eb

Here's where I'm confused...does it matter if you use C# vs. Db? I realize it won't matter to me since I'll be playing the right now, but I'd still like to know to keep myself in line with the music theory.

The problem with teaching yourself is, your teacher doesn't know the material.

What you've described is incorrect. You don't say what books or online resources you are using. I suggest you buy a copy of this;
http://www.amazon.com/Edlys-Music-Th...6249656&sr=1-1
& start at the beginning. 8-)

[rbbrchkn]

First of all, you want to have every letter represented in every key, which goes along with not doubling a letter. Once you figure out which key you're in it's much easier to read if you can read the note letter and not have to hunt down the accidental to see which note you're looking for.

I find that consistency is key for using accidentals... as you're learning, if you try to keep to a pattern with writing things out it'll become obvious where you're making things unnecessarily confusing for yourself.

As for making a Major scale into a minor scale, the pattern depends on which minor scale you're looking to use. That's where the theory book comes in handy, 'cause it'll lay out what goes where, and why.

[Stick_Player]

Do you mean mixing flats and sharps in the same scale? Because that is a no no.

What? It is?

Then what is this scale: D, E, F, G, A, B♭, C#, D?

It is a rather common scale.

[kreider204]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

What? It is?

Then what is this scale: D, E, F, G, A, B♭, C#, D?

It is a rather common scale.

I assume, in context of the discussion, that he was referring to standard major (Ionian) and minor (Aeolian) scales (as opposed to your example of the harmonic minor scale).

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by kreider204

I assume, in context of the discussion, that he was referring to standard major (Ionian) and minor (Aeolian) scales (as opposed to your example of the harmonic minor scale).

Well dude, harmonic minor IS the most common form of minor. It ain't that rare.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Nashrakh

Ah, the circle of fifths. Learn it, love it.

What does that have to do with writing out the parallel minor of a diatonic scale?

[zakimball]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

What? It is?

Then what is this scale: D, E, F, G, A, B♭, C#, D?

It is a rather common scale.

That's a d harmonic minor scale it's an altered form of the natural minor scale, which has Cnat. instead of C#
The reason you write C# and not Db is to keep the interval relationships the same. An interval of a 2nd or 7th etc... You don't want to end with a dim 8th!
The V chord for example, is A-C#-E not A-Db-E this way the relationship of thirds in the chord in kept intact and makes things easier to read.

Also, another reason writing a scale like that is to keep the page from being too cluttered for the performer to read. It's easier to read Bb C# D than Bb Db Dnat.

I hope that makes at least some sense!

Edit: When you use C# in the d minor scale, it should always be an accidental, never write the key signature as 1 b and 1 #

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I'm teaching myself some basic music theory and something has been bothering me for a while.

Say I want to write the Eb Maj scale, which (if I'm correct) is:

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

If I want to convert to minor, I move down everything besides R, 4, 5 and 8 down a half step, right?

Eb E Gb Ab Eb B Db Eb

Here's where I'm confused...does it matter if you use C# vs. Db? I realize it won't matter to me since I'll be playing the right now, but I'd still like to know to keep myself in line with the music theory.

I would like to correct the mistake in your post that has apparently been overlooked by all the crossfiring experts here.

To convert a major scale to a minor scale, you need to know which minor scale: natural, harmonic or melodic.

R, 2, 4, 5 and 8 stay the same. 3 is always a half step down (THE characteristic interval of every minor scale). Differences occur in intervals 6 and 7.

natural minor: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7,8
harmonic minor: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7,8
melodic minor:
upward: 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7,8
downward: 8,b7,b6,5,4,b3,2,1

[MalcolmAmos]

Chris --- I've never understood the reason melodic minor has 2 different interval sequence one for going up scale and then reverting to natural minor on the trip downward.
Can you enlighten me why this was/is necessary, why did the old guys decide to do it this way? I guess my question is - why is that necessary?

natural minor: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7,8
harmonic minor: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7,8
melodic minor:
upward: 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7,8
downward: 8,b7,b6,5,4,b3,2,1


Thanks,

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Chris --- I've never understood the reason melodic minor has 2 different interval sequence one for going up scale and then reverting to natural minor on the trip downward.
Can you enlighten me why this was/is necessary, why did the old guys decide to do it this way? I guess my question is - why is that necessary?

natural minor: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7,8
harmonic minor: 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7,8
melodic minor:
upward: 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7,8
downward: 8,b7,b6,5,4,b3,2,1


Thanks,

I'd like to know as well honestly. I've been aware of this fact for a while but I was never told why.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

I'd like to know as well honestly. I've been aware of this fact for a while but I was never told why.

I'm going to quote HaVIC5 here, if he doesn't mind. I thought I remembered a good post he made on this topic, and I believe this is it:

"That's a common misconception that academia has put forward about the nature of the melodic minor scale - that you use the natural 6+7 when ascending melodically and the lowered sixth and seventh when descending. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, when classical musicians learn their scales, they learn to play the melodic minor scale this way when going up...

A B C D E F# G# A (1 2 b3 4 5 6 7)

...and this way when going down (natural minor)...

A G F E D C B A

It actually was a decision that instrumental pedagogues made to simplistically explain how minor keys work in that it can change depending on the melodic circumstances. If you do any analysis of any common practice classical music you'll see that there are plenty of instances where the melodic minor "ascending" scale descending and when the natural minor "descending" scale ascends. Without going too much further into it, what it boils down to is that for whenever the melodic material is "dominant" - that is to that that whenever the chord of the moment for the melody is a V chord, a V7 chord, a viio7 chord, or any other kind of dominant-functioning chord - the "ascending scale" is used but only when the melody links the 5th, 6th and 7th degrees together linearly.

Another way that it can be explained is that the "default" minor scale for classical music is the harmonic minor with scale degrees b6 and 7. I like this system a lot even though its not 100% historically true, because you can have the "default scale", and then have those two degrees be variable and change them according to some basic rules. There is more nuance to this, of course, but really, this is all you need to know unless you have a burning desire to write fugal counterpoint.

1. 7 has a melodic need to resolve up to 1
2. b6 has a melodic need to resolve down to 5
3. Because of this, b6 cannot go to 7 since their resolutions conflict, and that it creates an awkward #2 interval. (Exception: Diminished arpeggios)
4. Natural 6 can be used, but only in direct linear conjunction with 7.
5. b7 can be used, but only in direct linear conjunction with b6. "

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

5. b7 can be used, but only in direct linear conjunction with b6. "

Interesting, I've always believed that the b7 note resolves very well up to the root note, even better than the 7. (emphasizing the word note so no one thinks I'm talking about chords).