Using Modes

[sohamorrohit]

There is so much conflicting opinions about modes that it's very difficult to know which one's true. So I'm gonna ask this through an example.

Say I'm playing over a D minor or minor7 chord. Obviously I can solo over it using the D minor scale(D E F G A Bb C D). But can I solo over it using the D dorian( D E F G A B C D) which is actually derived from the C major scale? Or am I supposed to use modes of the key of C only for a C major chord?

Help me out here.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by sohamorrohit

There is so much conflicting opinions about modes that it's very difficult to know which one's true. So I'm gonna ask this through an example.

Say I'm playing over a D major chord. Obviously I can solo over it using the D minor scale. But can I solo over it using the C Dorian and the off-key notes are what modes are all about? Or am I supposed to use modes of the key of C only for a C major chord?

Help me out here.

Several things to consider, that is why it is confusing, most end up giving bits and pieces and not the whole story in Internet posts.

Say I'm playing over a D major chord. Obviously I can solo over it using the D minor scale. But can I solo over it using the C Dorian and the off-key notes are what modes are all about? Or am I supposed to use modes of the key of C only for a C major chord?

If you are going to be soloing - why not play the songs tune and not get into all that mode stuff. But, back to your question. Over a D major chord why would you use the D minor scale. Sure it works and people do it all the time - your 3's, 6's & 7's will clash, but if you are happy so am I. Your next question about using C Dorian over a D major cord - you can do anything you like, but why mix major and minors together? Like notes harmonize, much simpler to play D major pentatonic over a D major chord - IMO. The chord's pentatonic will give you three like notes for harmony and two safe passing notes for color. Pentatonic scales are, for us mortals, much easier to use.

I mentioned bits and pieces, here are some bits and pieces. First like notes in the melody line and the chord line harmonize both lines. That is your ultimate goal. Harmony.

1. Will you have enough time to use a 7 note mode before the music moves on to another chord? If not think about using the mode's characteristic note in your bass line, i.e. Dorian would have a b3 and a 6. The b3 because Dorian is a minor mode and Dorian's characteristic note is the natural 6. The real question is why Dorian or Phrygian and not the natural minor scale?

2. If the solo instrument is using a mode we should be laying down a modal vamp. http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm3.html A chord progression calls attention to the tonal center. A modal vamp sustains the modal sound. Two different types of music involved here modal and tonal. What are the other guys doing? You can not go too far wrong by following the chords the rest of the band is using. You could have the solo instrument doing his thing with a mode and the other guys following a chord progression - they used when the vocalist was singing. If so that is doing nothing about sustaining the modal sound coming from the solo at this point in the song. Consider this; the vocalist set a mood. Now when the lead is passed to another solo instrument that instrument should sustain the mood set by the vocalist. Is the vocalist's mood happy, is it sad? The major scale is happy. The natural minor scale is sad. Why not use this as a guide. Do we, as an accompaniment instrument, need to go beyond this? Follow the chords the other guys are using. OK now, if you are composing you need to get deeper, if you are playing bass in the rhythm section - follow the chords and play chord tones - yes add the notes necessary for walking bass lines, but, always that but - chord tone accompiment is the safe way.

3. So there is much more involved with this than just what scale or chord you should have in your bass line.

[sohamorrohit]

Sorry about that. I mean to say playing over a D MINOR chord. not major.

[sohamorrohit]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Like notes harmonize, much simpler to play D major pentatonic over a D major chord - IMO. The chord's pentatonic will give you three like notes for harmony and two safe passing notes for color. Pentatonic scales are, for us mortals, much easier to use.

I have the basic major, minor and pentatonics down. Thing is, I've come to a point where I'm feeling my playing's becoming to repetitive. And also I'm trying to learn jazz theory. Which is why I'm finally trying to understand modes. I wasn't playing jazz before and simply ignored the whole mode thing because it didn't feel necessary. But for jazz, I'm assuming it is.

[Basshoofd]

Modes aren't necessary. In the end, a mode is just a scale starting from a different position.

If you play over a d minor chord, obviously the notes that make up d minor will sound good. Notes in the d minor scale will fit nicely too. Chord tones and basic scales are "correct" notes, so they will sound very fitting but a bit uninteresting.

You can add a lot of color in your playing by playing "out-notes". You suggested playing a d dorian scale. Compare it to the regular minor scale and you'll see that they are exactly the same - except for the 6th note (minor scale has a minor 6th, dorian mode has a natural sixth). So the sound of dorian is defined by the 6th note. Playing a natural sixth over a minor chord gives you a very specific sound, one that's used a lot in jazz. (Many jazzers consider dorian to be the default choice for a minor chord).

Another idea is the prhygian mode. Again, compare it to the natural minor scale and find out that it's the same except for the second note. Instead of a natural second, the phrygian mode has a flat second. Phrygian is defined by the second note. This also has a very specific sound, it's more dissonant than the jazzy dorian or plain natural.

Those are just basic scale ideas. And actually all you are doing is changing one note in the minor scale. If you feel you completely understand the possibilities with scales, you can start looking at chord substitutions. For example, outline an A minor chord while playing over D minor and see how and why it sounds the way it sounds. Also interesting are chromatics, leading tones, exotic scales etc.

While you're getting comfortable with that, always keep listening to music. The masters have great ideas that you can learn from.

[BassChuck]

All notes harmonize. The only question is, "do you like that particular sound?". One of the reasons there is so much information that is conflicting is that there are so many different styles and situations (musically) to pick from. What do you want to sound like? What basslines are tolerated by the style you are playing? What will please or anger your fellow musicans?

Sometimes the best thing is a blues scale or pentatonic in the key you are playing in... other times a major scale a half step above the root of the accompaning chord is just what the doctor should order. Its up to you. Develop your ear and musical taste and someday, somewhere, someone just might be writing a theory text based on your playing.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by sohamorrohit

There is so much conflicting opinions about modes that it's very difficult to know which one's true. So I'm gonna ask this through an example.

Say I'm playing over a D minor or minor7 chord. Obviously I can solo over it using the D minor scale(D E F G A Bb C D). But can I solo over it using the D dorian( D E F G A B C D) which is actually derived from the C major scale? Or am I supposed to use modes of the key of C only for a C major chord?

Help me out here.

If you want to use modes properly in your example, it would be good to know if Dmin is the key or just a chord in a chord progression.

For example, a major key is based on the major scale. But a minor key has more colors and there is 3 minor scales that can be used to defined a minor key because of the different colors a I minor chord can be. The 3 scales are minor harmonic, minor melodic and minor natural. These scales fit a specific I minor. If a I min is a min6 then the melodic minor scale is played. If a Imin7 then it is the minor natural and if the I minMaj7 then minor harmonic or minor melodic can be used.

As you can see, I didn't mention the Dorian or the Phrygian that both fit a min7 chord because these two modes don't define a minor tonality and are used mainly in a functional chords progression as a II and a III in a major key.

Hope this helps,

Sly

[PhiDeck]

Originally Posted by Basshoofd

In the end, a mode is just a scale starting from a different position.

A mode is just a diatonic scale with its two semi-tone intervals in a different position.

[HeadyVan Halen]

Originally Posted by Basshoofd

Modes aren't necessary. In the end, a mode is just a scale starting from a different position.

If you play over a d minor chord, obviously the notes that make up d minor will sound good. Notes in the d minor scale will fit nicely too. Chord tones and basic scales are "correct" notes, so they will sound very fitting but a bit uninteresting.

You can add a lot of color in your playing by playing "out-notes". You suggested playing a d dorian scale. Compare it to the regular minor scale and you'll see that they are exactly the same - except for the 6th note (minor scale has a minor 6th, dorian mode has a natural sixth). So the sound of dorian is defined by the 6th note. Playing a natural sixth over a minor chord gives you a very specific sound, one that's used a lot in jazz. (Many jazzers consider dorian to be the default choice for a minor chord).

Another idea is the prhygian mode. Again, compare it to the natural minor scale and find out that it's the same except for the second note. Instead of a natural second, the phrygian mode has a flat second. Phrygian is defined by the second note. This also has a very specific sound, it's more dissonant than the jazzy dorian or plain natural.

Those are just basic scale ideas. And actually all you are doing is changing one note in the minor scale. If you feel you completely understand the possibilities with scales, you can start looking at chord substitutions. For example, outline an A minor chord while playing over D minor and see how and why it sounds the way it sounds. Also interesting are chromatics, leading tones, exotic scales etc.

While you're getting comfortable with that, always keep listening to music. The masters have great ideas that you can learn from.

Yes. This.
Guy knows what he's talking about.
It's like getting to the number 10.
You can do 5+5 or 7+3 but you'll get the same result, just from different starting points.

[JimmyM]

I'm with the folks who couldn't give a crap about modes. Taking your example with the Dm or Dm7 chord, the context of the song would determine whether I'd play Bb or B natural, and I may play both depending on my mood. Or I may play notes that are completely removed from the mode scale. Playing modes and scales can suck it because it's boring and limiting. Use the chords as a guideline for what to play instead.

[sohamorrohit]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

If you want to use modes properly in your example, it would be good to know if Dmin is the key or just a chord in a chord progression.

For example, a major key is based on the major scale. But a minor key has more colors and there is 3 minor scales that can be used to defined a minor key because of the different colors a I minor chord can be. The 3 scales are minor harmonic, minor melodic and minor natural. These scales fit a specific I minor. If a I min is a min6 then the melodic minor scale is played. If a Imin7 then it is the minor natural and if the I minMaj7 then minor harmonic or minor melodic can be used.

As you can see, I didn't mention the Dorian or the Phrygian that both fit a min7 chord because these two modes don't define a minor tonality and are used mainly in a functional chords progression as a II and a III in a major key.

Hope this helps,

Sly

Thanks for this tip. I learned melodic and harmonic minors but never used them. But now it's a lot clearer.
And in my question I was asking about a Dmin chord in a D minor scale. I tried playing in C Phrygian over a Emin7 chord and got a very distinctive sound. Very indian raga-ish. Something I generally don't get(which is odd cause I'm an Indian ). That's the idea I was going for.

[sohamorrohit]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I'm with the folks who couldn't give a crap about modes. Taking your example with the Dm or Dm7 chord, the context of the song would determine whether I'd play Bb or B natural, and I may play both depending on my mood. Or I may play notes that are completely removed from the mode scale. Playing modes and scales can suck it because it's boring and limiting. Use the chords as a guideline for what to play instead.

I get where you're coming from Jimmy and seeing as you are WAY more experienced than I am, I have no doubt you're right . But until and unless I try both methods, how would what's right for ME? I just don't want to regret NOT learning something 10 years from now.

[sohamorrohit]

Originally Posted by Basshoofd

Modes aren't necessary. In the end, a mode is just a scale starting from a different position.

If you play over a d minor chord, obviously the notes that make up d minor will sound good. Notes in the d minor scale will fit nicely too. Chord tones and basic scales are "correct" notes, so they will sound very fitting but a bit uninteresting.

You can add a lot of color in your playing by playing "out-notes". You suggested playing a d dorian scale. Compare it to the regular minor scale and you'll see that they are exactly the same - except for the 6th note (minor scale has a minor 6th, dorian mode has a natural sixth). So the sound of dorian is defined by the 6th note. Playing a natural sixth over a minor chord gives you a very specific sound, one that's used a lot in jazz. (Many jazzers consider dorian to be the default choice for a minor chord).

Another idea is the prhygian mode. Again, compare it to the natural minor scale and find out that it's the same except for the second note. Instead of a natural second, the phrygian mode has a flat second. Phrygian is defined by the second note. This also has a very specific sound, it's more dissonant than the jazzy dorian or plain natural.

Those are just basic scale ideas. And actually all you are doing is changing one note in the minor scale. If you feel you completely understand the possibilities with scales, you can start looking at chord substitutions. For example, outline an A minor chord while playing over D minor and see how and why it sounds the way it sounds. Also interesting are chromatics, leading tones, exotic scales etc.

While you're getting comfortable with that, always keep listening to music. The masters have great ideas that you can learn from.

Thanks a lot for explaining it in simple terms. Sounds like modes are a lot simpler in practice than theory.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by sohamorrohit

I get where you're coming from Jimmy and seeing as you are WAY more experienced than I am, I have no doubt you're right . But until and unless I try both methods, how would what's right for ME? I just don't want to regret NOT learning something 10 years from now.

Well I certainly won't talk anyone out of learning the modes. I just don't think they have any practical use on a gig. If I think a note that's out of a particular mode or scale will work in a song, I'm going to play it regardless. I'm also a firm believer in forgetting everything you've learned when you play and just play something from the heart. I've never gotten that kind of feeling of "playing from the heart" from someone who uses modes. Plus it's just another layer of translation that slows you down if you're sightreading a chord chart, which often happens on a jazz bandstand.

However, if you want to give it a shot with the modes, you're right that it's a lot easier to put it into practice than it seems at first. That's why some like to use them...it does make decisions about note choices easier. But it also makes them safe and predictable. But I guess some folks have to find out for themselves So all I'll tell you is that if you ever have the choice of sticking with a mode or going out of the mode because you think a note out of the mode would sound better, always go with your instincts.

[narud]

if youre serious about this. transcribe solos. the questions will answer themselves. theres maybe only a few people worthy of taking any actual educational advice from in the g.i forum and they aint always around. now, if youre like a lot of my students and like the idea of learning all this stuff but dont really want to put in the time, by all means, listen to everyone in this thread.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by narud

if youre serious about this. transcribe solos. the questions will answer themselves. theres maybe only a few people worthy of taking any actual educational advice from in the g.i forum and they aint always around. now, if youre like a lot of my students and like the idea of learning all this stuff but dont really want to put in the time, by all means, listen to everyone in this thread.

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that was a shot.

[pbass888]

all answers are in the records.... transcribe miles, wes montgomery, chet baker... and maybe a little later some bird and trane. start slowly and easily and transcribe a bit daily.... a good improv teacher helps a lot in pointing you in the right direction. I might suggest todd johnson here on tb.
good luck

Originally Posted by narud

if youre serious about this. transcribe solos. the questions will answer themselves. theres maybe only a few people worthy of taking any actual educational advice from in the g.i forum and they aint always around. now, if youre like a lot of my students and like the idea of learning all this stuff but dont really want to put in the time, by all means, listen to everyone in this thread.

[bassybill]

I think modes have their uses as guides, but that doesn't mean you have to actually play them like scales.

To use the OPs example, D dorian has no sharps or flats. So if you're playing a tune in a key with no sharps or flats (C major or A minor), then the D dorian mode might give you some clue as to what notes could possibly work well over your Dm or Dm7 chords, in addtion to the chord tones of course. And if you used any of those notes you'd probably be fairly safe (especially if you stuck to chord tones on strong beats). Does it mean you can't use any other notes? No. Does it mean you're guaranteed to sound good if you play the whole mode up and down in order like a scale, in ascending or descending order, at that point in the tune? Most emphatically NO.

Narud's transcription suggestion is a good one - take a real hard look at what notes are being used over changes, and where those notes come in the bar, and you'll get tons of ideas. The only thing I'd add is that it it doesn't have to be just solos.

[sohamorrohit]

Originally Posted by narud

if youre serious about this. transcribe solos. the questions will answer themselves. theres maybe only a few people worthy of taking any actual educational advice from in the g.i forum and they aint always around. now, if youre like a lot of my students and like the idea of learning all this stuff but dont really want to put in the time, by all means, listen to everyone in this thread.

If transcribing means learning by ear then that's how I do most of the time. My reading's still not fluent enough but I've never enjoyed tabs. I used them when I first started out but now everything I learn is by ear. And a fellow musician hear taught me how you can figure out the chords by playing the melody so that's what I use. It takes a little time though. I guess I just have to practice. If this isn't transcribing, can you explain it to me?
Thanks.

[JTE]

It's really pretty simple. Instead of being concerned with whether to play D minor (or D Aeolian) or D Dorian, or D Phrygian start with the notes of the chord. You do know that, right? If not, the whole "match this mode with this chord" is a confusing way to get to what notes to play. And if you DO know that Dmin7 is D F A C, then you already have most of what you need without reference to a mode.

What notes are in D Aeolian? What notes are in D Dorian? D Phrygian? Note that they ALL have the Dmin7 chord in them. So why prefer one over the other? In the absence of context there's simply no reason to choose one instead of the other two. If it's just a Dmin7 vamp, play 'em all. It comes down to whether you like the Eb or the E, the B or the Bb. Why not play all four of those choices in passing if it sounds good?

John