Walking bass lines(Dominant Approach). Help !!

fearceol · #1 06-14-2009, 05:32 AM

Hi guys,

I've been working my way through Ed Friedland's "Building Walking Basslines". I've been making good progress 'till I reached the dominant approach. I'm a bit confused about one or two things. I'm a comparative newbie to bass.

I know the 5th is the dominant. I understand how G is the upper and lower dominant approach to C. Where I get confused is where he introduces a "new note choice", and states "the U/L dom of the 5th is also scale degree 2"

Going from F7 to Bb7 he has :

R (F) , U/dom (G), 5 L/dom (C), U/dom R (F)

How is G the upper dominant here and not C

It does not seem to follow the same rule as G being the U/L dom of C.

Also, which is the "target". I assume it's Bb7, because that's what you are moving towards.

Sorry if I'm not explaining my question very well. I need to understand this before I can move on in the book.

psychotiger · #2 06-14-2009, 05:56 AM

G is not being used as the U/dom of F but rather as the U/dom of the fifth of F which is C. The target is Bb so moving from C to the target the transitional note is the u/dom of Bb which is F. Maybe Ed can explain what he means by "scale degree 2". He told me once but I have apparently lost that bit of info. I'll blame it on the beer.

Cheers

Clif

BluesWalker · #3 06-14-2009, 06:10 AM

I believe you are looking at page 23 of the book. You are confusing the dominant of the root and and the dominant of the fifth: re-read the third sentence at the top of the page until you can see this. The upper or lower dominant of the fifth of the F7 chord (the C note) is G. This G is also the 2nd scale degree of the F scale.

Another way to state this: Ed has you playing chord tones on beats 1 and 3 and approach notes on beats 2 and 4. Moving from the root (F) to the fifth (C), he uses the upper dominant of the target note C (not of the root note, F) as the passing tone: this note is G which is also scale degree 2 of the F mixolodian scale.

By relating this passing note to the F scale, he gives you an easy way to make this selection as you don't have to be thinking of both the chord scale (F) and the target note scale (C) at the same time. His point, if you are targeting the fifth of the chord for your note selection on beat 3, you can use the 2nd of the chord scale as the passing tone, end of lesson.

I hope you this makes sense and you get the idea. Others can probaby explain it better than I can.

BluesWalker · #4 06-14-2009, 06:14 AM

psycotiger hit it on the head for the F note on beat 4. The F is the root of the F7 chord and is also the upper dominant of the Bb chord. The latter makes it a strong approach note.

psychotiger · #5 06-14-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesWalker

this note is G which is also scale degree 2 of the F mixolodian scale.

Oh, yeah. That's what "scale degree 2" means. Well put, BluesWalker. How can something so simple make me feel so slow? And why am I up this early on a Sunday?

fearceol · #6 06-14-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesWalker

I believe you are looking at page 23 of the book. You are confusing the dominant of the root and and the dominant of the fifth: re-read the third sentence at the top of the page until you can see this. The upper or lower dominant of the fifth of the F7 chord (the C note) is G. This G is also the 2nd scale degree of the F scale.

Another way to state this: Ed has you playing chord tones on beats 1 and 3 and approach notes on beats 2 and 4. Moving from the root (F) to the fifth (C), he uses the upper dominant of the target note C (not of the root note, F) as the passing tone: this note is G which is also scale degree 2 of the F mixolodian scale.

By relating this passing note to the F scale, he gives you an easy way to make this selection as you don't have to be thinking of both the chord scale (F) and the target note scale (C) at the same time. His point, if you are targeting the fifth of the chord for your note selection on beat 3, you can use the 2nd of the chord scale as the passing tone, end of lesson.

I hope you this makes sense and you get the idea. Others can probaby explain it better than I can.

Thanks for that.

It is indeed page 23. Your post is very helpful.

BluesWalker · #7 06-14-2009, 06:30 AM

If you look at measure 6 of exercise 17, you will see the same use of scale degree 2. The note choices for the first three beats are Bb (root) -C [L/dom of the target note (F the fifth of Bb) and scale degree 2 of the Bb scale] - F (fifth).

He throws a curve in the next measure where beat 3 is not a strong note but goes to a strong note on beat 4. Mixing it up like this create different tension/release, which makes it more interesting to the listener. He also does this in measure 3 and probably a few other places.

fearceol · #8 06-14-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesWalker

If you look at measure 6 of exercise 17, you will see the same use of scale degree 2. The note choices for the first three beats are Bb (root) -C [L/dom of the target note (F the fifth of Bb) and scale degree 2 of the Bb scale] - F (fifth).

He throws a curve in the next measure where beat 3 is not a strong note but goes to a strong note on beat 4. Mixing it up like this create different tension/release, which makes it more interesting to the listener. He also does this in measure 3 and probably a few other places.

Thanks again. Lightbulbs are starting to glow !!

edfriedland · #9 06-14-2009, 09:30 AM

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Clif, but both you and Blueswalker have done a fine job of explaining this!

Yes, the G is the dom approach of the C (the 5th of the F7) chord. That is the "new" note, and if you look at the F7 scale (mixo) it's scale degree 2. Then comes the C which is the 5, then back to F which acts as the dom approach of the next chord, Bb.

What I will point out is: this pattern creates a "ii-V-I" movement within the F7 chord. Kind of cool. Even cooler is how it creates 3 dominant resolutions in a row - G-C-F-Bb. By the time you land on the Bb, there's quite a bit of momentum generated.

Glad to hear people are still learning how to walk basslines! Party on.

BluesWalker · #10 06-14-2009, 11:17 AM

Hey Ed, I didn't think about the ii-V-I movement within the chord, that is pretty cool. Thanks for that insight.

edfriedland · #11 06-14-2009, 11:22 AM

This is one of the ways bass players can create harmonic movement where there is none. If you had for example, four bars on one chord.... this could be used to build "internal cadences" at strategic points in the phrase. Just one of many possibilities.

fearceol · #12 06-14-2009, 02:02 PM

Thanks again to everybody for your help.

Ed : I'm really enjoying, and learning a lot from your book. Apart from "walking", it opens up new ideas for more interesting bass lines in general.

edfriedland · #13 06-14-2009, 02:25 PM

Cool!

BluesWalker · #14 06-14-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edfriedland

This is one of the ways bass players can create harmonic movement where there is none. If you had for example, four bars on one chord.... this could be used to build "internal cadences" at strategic points in the phrase. Just one of many possibilities.

Thanks, I will try that at this week's practice.

pbass888 · #15 08-02-2009, 07:34 PM

great explanation I was also stuck on the same page , thankyou bw and ed (great book i love motown and the chromatic gives one a lot of jamerson type ideas!!!)

derekd · #16 08-03-2009, 01:39 PM

Hey Ed, I have recently gotten roped into teaching jazz bass to a couple of middle school kids, and am using your book to do so. Great resource.

El Bajo · #17 08-04-2009, 04:50 AM

I got stuck on this section as well!!!!