Web Site: Jazz Theory, General Theory + much more.

[Rockin John]

Found this site, below, by Saxophonist, Pete Thomas.

OK, much refers to the Sax, but much is applicable anywhere.

I think it's really good.

http://www.petethomas.co.uk/x-sitemap.html

John

[The Clap]

Whoa there's a lot of content in that site! Thanks for the link.

[slybass3000]

BE CAREFUL!!!
I looked at it and there are a lot of wrong stuff in the jazz theory section.

SB

[Red Wonder]

Your not kidding...

"In practice it is often useful to cut out one mode in this process: as most V7 chords in mainstream jazz have a preceding IIm7 it can be useful to use the Dorian mode to cover the V7 chord as well.

The key centre method is useful for fast moving chord changes, the modalmethod for slow moving changes when there is more time to think of the modes.

Bebop scales should only be used as scales, not to construct melodic phrases otherwise the added chromatic notes will no longer be passing notes and will not fit the chord."


ummmmm...yeah, sure.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Red Wonder

Your not kidding...

"In practice it is often useful to cut out one mode in this process: as most V7 chords in mainstream jazz have a preceding IIm7 it can be useful to use the Dorian mode to cover the V7 chord as well.

The key centre method is useful for fast moving chord changes, the modalmethod for slow moving changes when there is more time to think of the modes.

Bebop scales should only be used as scales, not to construct melodic phrases otherwise the added chromatic notes will no longer be passing notes and will not fit the chord."


ummmmm...yeah, sure.

Actually, there is some sense to the first two statements, especially the 2nd IMO. You really don't have to change modes on every chord every time, and it is pointless to try when they're going by 2-per-measure at 280 bpm. See, for example, some of Chris Fitzgerald's posts on "blanket scales" in the theory stickies. It's essentially the same concept.

But the dorian is *certainly* not always the right mode for the ii or the ii-V

I don't get the third statement, though.

[lemur821]

But the dorian is *certainly* not always the right mode for the ii or the ii-V

He didn't actually say that it was. He said it was often useful to do so, if you were following a modal approach, which he regards as useful for beginners, but not as an advanced approach to constructing a melody.

The third quote is from a page on using scales for improvisation. He says that if you aren't immediately struck with melodic inspiration, a decent starting point is to play scales that fit the chords. He then discusses some scales. Since the bebop scale has eight notes in it, then if you run up it the notes landing on strong beats are likely to be chord tones, and the less consonant notes will fall on weak beats, as passing tones. The third quote means that we shouldn't (in his opinion) attempt to construct melodies using the notes from bebop scales, since they contain notes "meant" to be used only as passing tones. He does preface the whole page with the statement, "What constitutes a wrong note in jazz improvisation is often subjective." So it's not like he's saying it's always wrong to use all the notes in a bebop scale to make a melody.

All in all, he seems correct enough. I haven't read it all, so I can't really speak on whether there are a lot of wrong stuff in the jazz theory section.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

BE CAREFUL!!!
I looked at it and there are a lot of wrong stuff in the jazz theory section.

SB

When I saw the link,I went to the chord xtensions to see how he was dealing with the odd stuff and BANG, the first thing I looked at was wrong. He says that a C MAJ11 exist and so is C maj13 with the 11. There are no such thing.
This is so wrong,and beginners will think it is useful and appliable.
And some of is analysis are off too,when he analyses Autumn leaves.
The Eb Maj7 is a lydian mode and as nothing to do as a pivot chord to G min for exeample.
The rest of the site is well done,like the blues licks and stuff like that.
But just be careful and don't assume that everything is right in there WITHOUT A REAL EXPLANATION!

Hope this will help,
SB

[Rockin John]

Hmm. OK. Maybe this site isn't so good after all?

Oh dear, I thought it might help. But beginners like me clearly couldn't sort the good from the bad........

John

[WillPlay4Food]

Originally Posted by Rockin John

Hmm. OK. Maybe this site isn't so good after all?

Oh dear, I thought it might help. But beginners like me clearly couldn't sort the good from the bad........

John

Don't feel bad, Rockin John. I thought this was a good site as well and recently recommended it in another thread here in GI.

[Red Wonder]

The web site is solid its just that deciphering jazz theory incites controversy from the get-go. He does mention at the beginning that these rules shouldn't be etched in stone. Misinformation and music theory does not mix, especially when learning to nail jazz concepts.

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

When I saw the link,I went to the chord xtensions to see how he was dealing with the odd stuff and BANG, the first thing I looked at was wrong. He says that a C MAJ11 exist and so is C maj13 with the 11. There are no such thing.
This is so wrong,and beginners will think it is useful and appliable.
And some of is analysis are off too,when he analyses Autumn leaves.
The Eb Maj7 is a lydian mode and as nothing to do as a pivot chord to G min for exeample.
The rest of the site is well done,like the blues licks and stuff like that.
But just be careful and don't assume that everything is right in there WITHOUT A REAL EXPLANATION!

Hope this will help,
SB

I'm sorry, are you actually claiming that 11 and 13 chords do not exist? In jazz? I'll admit that this Pete guy is a definitely very formulaic and teaches the kind of "paint by numbers" approach to improvisation, but he IS right that they exist. One of the reasons you know a chord is based off of a lydian scale is because it's written as a __#11. Another example is that a __b13 is based off of a melodic minor mode.

I will agree he's a bit bizarre in his analysis of Autumn Leaves. Autumn Leaves does not change tonal centres at all -- it's just __ minor (of course, everyone has their own favourite key for playing it in.) Looking at it like that is just absurd -- needlessly complicating a rather simple tune.

[slybass3000]

Well,the examples he gives on upper extensions don't have the #11.
They are based on the scale of C Maj with the perfect 11 instead of the raised one.
If you really want an 11 on a major 7 chord YOU HAVE TO raise the 11 so you won't have the minor 9th interval in the chord.
But that is not what he is showing.
The actual written chords should be C MA9(#11) and C MA13(#11).

SB

[Aaron Saunders]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to this, I forgot about this topic entirely.

Are you referring to the minor 9th that would show up from the 3rd to the 11th? Why not simply avoid playing the third over that? Besides, there is no hard an fast rule in this situation -- you never have to raise the 11, it just sounds nicer that way. Dissonance has its place too. These chords still exist, whether or not they're more or less practical or whether you'll see them on a leadsheet as much.


-Aaron

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Govithoy

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to this, I forgot about this topic entirely.

Are you referring to the minor 9th that would show up from the 3rd to the 11th? Why not simply avoid playing the third over that? Besides, there is no hard an fast rule in this situation -- you never have to raise the 11, it just sounds nicer that way. Dissonance has its place too. These chords still exist, whether or not they're more or less practical or whether you'll see them on a leadsheet as much.


-Aaron

The minor 9th is the most dissonant interval in music,worst then a semitone. It should be avoid in all chord except in a x7(b9). That is why there are no perfect 11 when the major third is in a chord. There is no b13 when a perfect fifth is in a chord and a major 13 shouldn't be placed an octave below the b7.
And Cmaj11 DOESN'T EXIST !!!!!! THE 11 HAS TO BE RAISED!!!
AND I've seen thousands and thousands of charts and I never saw that because it just doesn't sound good at all. TRY IT!!! PLAY a C MAJ11 and if you think it sounds good then I don't know what else to say.

SB

[Aaron Saunders]

Oh, I tried it alright! And yes...it sounds bloody awful, I'm not going to contest that at all. But, like I said, dissonance has its place, and just because the 11 doesn't sound nice (especially compared to the #11) doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or that it HAS to be raised.

[slybass3000]

It doesn't exist,believe me.
Sometimes,I mean some..times it is possible on guitar to play the 4th right beside the major third and it will sound nice but it is very specific to the instrument AND to the voicing used. But never you will have a MAJ 11 chord. It is one of the worst sounding chord in the universe.

SB

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

It doesn't exist,believe me.

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Sometimes,I mean some..times it is possible on guitar to play the 4th right beside the major third and it will sound nice but it is very specific to the instrument AND to the voicing used.

Hmmm...so it doesn't exist, but...maybe in some situations? If it's possible to play, it exists. That is a simple fact. The usefulness of the chord itself, however, is not all that much in most situations. Most. This does not mean all. Maybe what a song really needs to build tension may be a maj11 chord -- say a person decided to do a tension and release thing in building levels of intensity, where the tension would start small, the relief would be small, then it gets worse, then it gets way better, etc. etc. -- and eventually, a maj11 chord resolves to something incredibly pretty (I'm thinking a maj7 with a rootless guitar voicing, root in the bass, and ride with brush -- wouldn't that be pretty?) Might actually be useful there. Or maybe it could change voicings to go from flat out min9 dissonance to what you described above.

Originally Posted by slybass3000

But never you will have a MAJ 11 chord. It is one of the worst sounding chord in the universe.

SB

What is this, 1840? People never used to use V7 chords, diminished chords, melodic minor harmony, etc. etc., but they've become pretty commonplace. I'm not saying in 40 years we'll have people busting out maj11 chords, but just becasue you haven't found a use for it and you haven't identified someone else using it doesn't mean it hasn't or can't be done. There are no hard and fast rules about this. If nothing else, I'm sure Ornette Coleman would be willing to write a maj11 chord into a song.


EDIT: Also, you have to look at these things in context. A lot of chord voicings Bill Evans uses might sound absolutely awful and dissonant on their own, but in context -- after hearing the voicing before it, the lead-in to it from the left hand, the bassline, just the right cymbal crash, etc., it all works together and creates something gorgeous. Things like that are the reason a jazz pianist can't just learn a bunch of formulaic voicings out of a book and be considered a jazz pianist and toss them around willy-nilly, just like a jazz composer can't just read the Jazz Theory Book and can't depend on constricting rules like "this chord doesn't exist" or "dissonance is bad" to write their pieces and be considered a jazz composer.

Listen to Mingus and Monk and tell me everything has to sound pretty all the time, or that dissonant chords have no place and don't exist. Listen to Miles, Coltrane, Keith Jarret, Milt Jackson, listen to any jazz musician worth their salt and tell me that dissonant chords don't have their place in music.

[slybass3000]

Listen to Mingus and Monk and tell me everything has to sound pretty all the time, or that dissonant chords have no place and don't exist. Listen to Miles, Coltrane, Keith Jarret, Milt Jackson, listen to any jazz musician worth their salt and tell me that dissonant chords don't have their place in music.

I just looked in the NEW REAL BOOK from Sher Music for fun because there is a page on all the possible chords in Jazz. There are 79 kind of chords listed. This book is pretty much the reference in Modern Jazz repertoire from old standards to modern Jazz and there are NO TRACE OF A CMAJ11 in it!!

SB

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

I just looked in the NEW REAL BOOK from Sher Music for fun because there is a page on all the possible chords in Jazz. There are 79 kind of chords listed. This book is pretty much the reference in Modern Jazz repertoire from old standards to modern Jazz and there are NO TRACE OF A CMAJ11 in it!!

SB

Thanks for that conclusive proof that the chord does not exist. It should also be known that Real Books quite often have incorrect changes, too. Who knows, maybe there really is a maj11 in "The Song is You" and it's just really quiet.

That chart is by no means the be-all-and-end-all of chord possibilities. It doesn't have A-(maj7)sus4, but it's entirely possible to *play.* Thanks for taking all of the creativity out of your appreciation and playing of jazz, but I think I'll keep mine. Make sure you don't hit a maj11 chord next time you're playing along to Aebersolds...

This whole thing gets a big :eyeroll: at this point. I'm done with this arguement, it's like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

[slybass3000]

Thanks for that conclusive proof that the chord does not exist. It should also be known that Real Books quite often have incorrect changes, too.

I am talking about the NEW REAL BOOK!!!!
Read carefully the post A*?%$&%#$!

I think the big problem with this forum is that most people are not real musician, meaning that they are not listening(READING) post at all!!!

GOOD BYE!!!

SB