What did Charlie Parker do?

[monroe55]

I want to learn jazz to grow musically. I have good theory foundation. Good ear for learning songs blah, blah, blah. Soloing confuses me yet.
I watched the whole Ken Burns history of Jazz series. Loved it. I watched the Dirty Harry movie "Bird" about CParker. Zzzzz. I bought a bunch of classic Jazz Cds (lots of basic stuff from the documentary) and been listening to themfor a while. What I cant grasp is what happened when Bebop came along. They expain it a little in the show but I dont understand exactly how the music changed from bebop and why. It all sounds like "jazz" to me. Before and after the bebop era. I mean I can hear Parker and Dizzie doing some crazy fast soloing stuff but can someone explain why it was so different than someone taking a solo from the swing era?

Also, there's a member on this site who has a quote that reads something like "one wrong note is a mistake, two wrong notes is Jazz" not sure if that's right.. I need to know that quote again, anyone know how it goes?

[waleross]

Check out this site, they have an extensive number of publications for learning jazz improv, music minus one and other stuff......It doesn't come over-night but you have to start somewhere...........................
http://www.aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by monroe55

I want to learn jazz to grow musically. I have good theory foundation. Good ear for learning songs blah, blah, blah. Soloing confuses me yet.
I watched the whole Ken Burns history of Jazz series. Loved it. I watched the Dirty Harry movie "Bird" about CParker. Zzzzz. I bought a bunch of classic Jazz Cds (lots of basic stuff from the documentary) and been listening to themfor a while. What I cant grasp is what happened when Bebop came along. They expain it a little in the show but I dont understand exactly how the music changed from bebop and why. It all sounds like "jazz" to me. Before and after the bebop era. I mean I can hear Parker and Dizzie doing some crazy fast soloing stuff but can someone explain why it was so different than someone taking a solo from the swing era?

Also, there's a member on this site who has a quote that reads something like "one wrong note is a mistake, two wrong notes is Jazz" not sure if that's right.. I need to know that quote again, anyone know how it goes?

there was a fair sized community that experimented with soloing over modes instead if changes that came about in the late fifties with parker.... miles and coltrane parker helped pioneer bebop in the forties and fifties.....the swing bands were larger and more about dancing and many backed up singers,and some were vehicles for the band leaders...the soloists had a more structured song framework .....the bebop guys were more about smaller combos and experimenting with chopping up songs into smaller elements and longer solos.....

[Broadbent]

Bebop was the first time jazz music was considered 'art'. Try doing this when you are soloing, look for key centers in the song, so a key you can solo in for maybe 4 bars of the tune.

[lunarpollen]

Originally Posted by Broadbent

Bebop was the first time jazz music was considered 'art'.

I don't think that's true. There was some jazz before bebop that was considered art, maybe not the majority of it, but some definitely. Some Duke Ellington especially.

From what I've been able to gather, there were a few different things that contributed to the formation of bebop. It had its roots in more ambitious players in the late 1930's who were virtuosos at their instruments; in the 1940's they started experimenting more with new types of improvisation, harmony construction, rhythmic accentuation, etc. Back then, mainstream jazz was largely arranged stuff with predetermined breaks for solos. You had to be a good ensemble player, you had to work well with others, submit your ego to the overall band's sound under the leadership of someone else. And even in the best swing bands with the most sophisticated arrangements, it was still "music of the people", it had appeal to anyone who could appreciate a good tune with a good beat and an engaging arrangement. Some of the early bebop players were misfits, sometimes ill-tempered, not easy to work with in the confines of a big band playing swing music, sometimes unable to play tight arrangements, and they felt confined, unable to express themselves freely and fully. They wanted to show off, play music that only certain peers and a certain in-crowd could appreciate. But it was still a new and exciting form of music, and a lot less expensive to do. Small combos in intimate settings vs. big bands in larger venues. It was kind of a combination of natural experimentation and adventurousness, musical snobbery, novelty, and economics that led to its rise. Still, it wasn't a sudden transition. A lot of the early bebop ensembles and sounds were not far removed from the more ambitious swing bands, you could still dance to it, follow the tune, sing along, etc. As it got further from the mainstream swing stuff, it abandoned many of the elements that made the swing stuff so engaging in favor of different values and elements. So fans of mainstream jazz often felt alienated and abandoned by the new stuff, while fans of the new stuff often regarded the old stuff as corny and old-fashioned.

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

I don't think that's true. There was some jazz before bebop that was considered art, maybe not the majority of it, but some definitely. Some Duke Ellington especially.

From what I've been able to gather, there were a few different things that contributed to the formation of bebop. It had its roots in more ambitious players in the late 1930's who were virtuosos at their instruments; in the 1940's they started experimenting more with new types of improvisation, harmony construction, rhythmic accentuation, etc. Back then, mainstream jazz was largely arranged stuff with predetermined breaks for solos. You had to be a good ensemble player, you had to work well with others, submit your ego to the overall band's sound under the leadership of someone else. And even in the best swing bands with the most sophisticated arrangements, it was still "music of the people", it had appeal to anyone who could appreciate a good tune with a good beat and an engaging arrangement. Some of the early bebop players were misfits, sometimes ill-tempered, not easy to work with in the confines of a big band playing swing music, sometimes unable to play tight arrangements, and they felt confined, unable to express themselves freely and fully. They wanted to show off, play music that only certain peers and a certain in-crowd could appreciate. But it was still a new and exciting form of music, and a lot less expensive to do. Small combos in intimate settings vs. big bands in larger venues. It was kind of a combination of natural experimentation and adventurousness, musical snobbery, novelty, and economics that led to its rise. Still, it wasn't a sudden transition. A lot of the early bebop ensembles and sounds were not far removed from the more ambitious swing bands, you could still dance to it, follow the tune, sing along, etc. As it got further from the mainstream swing stuff, it abandoned many of the elements that made the swing stuff so engaging in favor of different values and elements. So fans of mainstream jazz often felt alienated and abandoned by the new stuff, while fans of the new stuff often regarded the old stuff as corny and old-fashioned.

Hey thanks. That helps.

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by Broadbent

Bebop was the first time jazz music was considered 'art'. Try doing this when you are soloing, look for key centers in the song, so a key you can solo in for maybe 4 bars of the tune.

Explain key centers

[azureblue]

Diz & Bird had this after hours jam session going on in NYC. I forgot the name of the club, but anyway, the guys from the different big bands would come and sit in quite a few of them were pretty lame, when it came to solos. And, remember the musical context- they were all playing the same tunes then, what we now call the "Standards". "I got Rhythm", "Back Home in Indiana", "How High the Moon", "Cherokee", (And I forgot what "Hot House" is based on- somebody help me- I'm having a brain fart) etc. So one night (and this is a story all hosters of jam sessions can relate to) Diz & Parker got disgusted at the same old lame old, and went home and rewrote some heads- the idea being to make them so difficult, the lesser talented players couldn't follow the tune, would give up and leave. Diz & Bird would start "I Got Rhythm", and crank out "Oleo" and the "squares" would go ***? and leave. For us bass players, "Donna Lee" is something of a milestone, but, it is just "Back home in Indiana".


But the main contribution Diz & Bird made was soloing outside of the structure- across the bar phrases, displaced rhythms, and outside of the changes. And, of course, playing some really busy solos...

Some things don't always have purely artistic beginnings........

[azureblue]

Originally Posted by monroe55

Originally Posted by Broadbent View Post
Bebop was the first time jazz music was considered 'art'.

Well, to be right about it, Buddy Bolden is credited with being the father of Jazz, but Louis Armstrong is the one everybody seems to give the crown to...

Get a copy of the book " Louis Armstrong's New Orleans" by Thomas Brothers. this book is really about the circumstances surrounding the birth of jazz and it is a must read for anybody who plays jazz. No, really, order a copy now...

[Mojo-Man]

Parker was also one of the first players to improvise in a 12 keys.
Parker threw out the rule book, and wrote his own.

[bongomania]

Parker was also a voracious student of musical knowledge, while many big-band players before him were content to learn their charts and keep their embouchure and timing correct. One example, a moment in time where I wish I could have been right there, was Bird used to study with an orchestral/classical composer named "Moondog". Bird taught Moondog about syncopation, blue notes, and jazz modes, and Moondog taught Bird about orchestration, composition, and classical harmony. Neither jazz nor classical music were ever quite the same after that.

[251]

Originally Posted by monroe55

I want to learn jazz to grow musically. I have good theory foundation. Good ear for learning songs blah, blah, blah. Soloing confuses me yet.
I watched the whole Ken Burns history of Jazz series. Loved it. I watched the Dirty Harry movie "Bird" about CParker. Zzzzz. I bought a bunch of classic Jazz Cds (lots of basic stuff from the documentary) and been listening to themfor a while. What I cant grasp is what happened when Bebop came along. They expain it a little in the show but I dont understand exactly how the music changed from bebop and why. It all sounds like "jazz" to me. Before and after the bebop era. I mean I can hear Parker and Dizzie doing some crazy fast soloing stuff but can someone explain why it was so different than someone taking a solo from the swing era?

Also, there's a member on this site who has a quote that reads something like "one wrong note is a mistake, two wrong notes is Jazz" not sure if that's right.. I need to know that quote again, anyone know how it goes?

The short answer is he changed music as it was played before he came on the scene.

Sometimes Wikipedia is a great source for historic info. This is one of those times;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie...sical_approach
For more info scroll to the top of that page & start reading.

Parker took everything that came before mixed it all together with Dizzy Gillespie & took it up a couple of notches. The good news is, it's all been transcribed for us. Find a copy of the OmniBook, in the Clef of your choice & look for yourself at how he treated melodies & soloed over melody, changes + invented motivs. It is a great music lesson. (Google search Parker Omnibook to find pdf files posted for download)

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by azureblue

the main contribution Diz & Bird made was soloing outside of the structure- across the bar phrases, displaced rhythms, and outside of the changes.

This is the exact part of the "contribution" I dont understand, besides the displaced rhythms. How do you Solo outside of the structure/changes?

[dalconthenovice]

the ken burns history of jazz thing... where can i find this? i wanna watch it

[pbasswil]

Before bebop, to most people "jazz" meant the popular music of the day -- which from the 30's to the 40's, was swing.

If you look closely at the melodies in swing, the core of them was what is called diatonic: i.e, they largely stick to scale tones. The important exception to that is: what was/is called blues notes.

Say you're playing a swing blues in C. On the piano, it's all white notes -- mostly a pentatonic scale from C to C. (Bottom to top: CDEGAC) But the funkier it is, the more it strays into a couple of black notes:
You'd add a Eb to get your flatted third;
and -- although swing usually stressed the 6th's on the tonic chord (A) -- you might be hitting the Bb to get your bluesy dominant chord.

Other than those two black notes, the only other excursions away from a diatonic scale would be the occasional passing note of the flatted 6th (Ab), when moving between the 5th and the 6th.

So, thanks to the influence of African American musical culture, jazz/swing/pop music had already made some important deviations away from the simple diatonic scales that had dominated Western music up until the Romantic era of classical music. But it still didn't embrace _all_ the chromatic "black notes" in between.

What I see in the melodies of Charlie Parker was the revolutionary expropriation of _all_ the chromatic notes in between the diatonic ones, as the rightful playground for the creative melody maker! Any of the "black notes" could now be used as a passing link to join 2 adjacent diatonic notes.

To the ear of the late 40's/early 50's, this was extremely modern and challenging sounding. The music went from a palette of 6 or 7 notes with 2 or 3 extra ones thrown in for tensions -- to a more level playing field, where every chromatic note could now be incorporated. No tones were off limits after this.

It wasn't by any means Schoenberg or anything, where all notes have equal vale. It was still the main scale tones plus tasty tensions in between. But at least every last note in a 12-tone octave could now bring its unique tension to the party.

And it wasn't just melodies. Once these notes started getting in people's ears, they also started showing up in the harmony. Chords started getting "extensions", up to and including #11's. And once flatted 2's started sounding familar, the similarity between V dominants and Flat II dominants started to get exploited.

So yeah, C Parker and bebop had quite a lasting impact. Rock and later popular musics have retreated a long way from that chromaticism. But we've all _heard_ it; our ears are changed forever. ≈8^o

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by dalconthenovice

the ken burns history of jazz thing... where can i find this? i wanna watch it

NETFLIX GOT IT. Its like 8 dvds long. Tons of old photos and video clips in the movie. Very informative for a jazz newbie

[The Owl]

Originally Posted by monroe55

NETFLIX GOT IT. Its like 8 dvds long. Tons of old photos and video clips in the movie. Very informative for a jazz newbie

Very true, up to about the 50's. After that, the documentarie's flaws are pretty obvious, a lot of developments in the late 50's/60's get the short end of the stick (Ornette, Mingus, jazz organ., jazz guitar for example) and fusion got totally dissed altogether. Although it was the natural thing for Burns to do, he did over-rely on Wynton Marsalis's input (and NOTHING against Wynton at all, I dig the guy's music a ton and he is INCREDIBLY knowledgeable of jazz history), to the detriment of the series. But that aside, the parts covering the beginning to Bop are really good.

[cat_saltnpepper]

just like other members posted, solo in swing era was more simple, easy to comprehend by general audiences.
in bebop era, musicians themselves were focused more so anything that challenging in terms of music like faster tempo, applying chromaticism in their solos, changing key center constantly and etc. happened.
bebop definitely has heavy influences on later style or period per se. like cool jazz and post bop, neo-classicism and pretty much any jazz-influenced music.
during cool jazz period, it was more about the sound rather than each one's solo. playing certain notes over certain chords, creating various moods and such. one of the big things in cool was modal harmony. it's been there before since bebop though.
post bop was more of going back to bebop era but harmonically bit more complex, personally speaking. a lot of non-diatonic movements and Coltrane stuff was definitely groundbreaking at that time.

interesting thing about whole changes in jazz history is that Miles Davis began his active career in later bebop era and died in the time of fusion music. he pretty much lived and saw all the things happening and lead the movements by his recording like 'kind of blue' and etc. - I honestly don't remember all the titles but he released a lot of albums, seriously

Ken Burns materials are great but there're apparently some debating going on - some people believe and worry that they're missing some important materials so it might misinform some of the history since ken burns series are pretty well-known and used in various occasions in schools and institutions.

[Stumpy]

maybe starting with chord tones (1, 3, 5, 7 of major, 1, b3, 5, b7 of minor, 1, 3, 5, b7 of the dominant) and try to connect those tones in the progressions given...then try to find a common tone through the first 4 bars...

Cmi7, Gb7, G7, Cmi7

D would work all the way across...making the chords ?

Cmi9, Gb7 (#5), G7, Cmi9...

G, Gb, G, G works in the same way...

start simple and work your way out.

[Jazzdogg]

It would be very interesting to see what kinds of responses this kind of thread might have elicited if it had been posted on the DB side of the TalkBass fence.