What is the difference between sus, sus2, sus4 chords? (and other questions)

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Scalar possibilities for dominant harmony-

blues scale
minor pent
major pent
mixo
lydian dominant (mixo #4, 4th mode of melodic minor)
diminished (half whole)
wholetone
diminished wholetone aka altered scale (7th mode of melodic minor)
and more.

For that matter, you might as well throw in the mother of all symmetrical scales, the Chromatic Scale.

My discussion was related to chord types as they are created within the realm of traditional diatonic harmony. There are no "rules of improvisation".

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Btw, excellent point about dominant basically being M3 m7 of the respective root. The tritone between the two ("the devil's interval") creates the tension with the given releases you mention. Ray Brown uses that tension and relsase all over the place to imply harmonic shifts that most cats just ignore.

So for the new guys- know your harmonic resolutions and the significance of tension and release, specifically how the 3rd and b7th of a tension chord resolve. Harmony is cool.

This is only true when a dominant chord is providing a dominant function, however.

[All_¥our_Bass]

using C as our root

C sus2 is C D G
C sus4 is C F G

A sus chord is both of these combined
C sus is C D F G

I know nothing about sus7 chords.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by All_¥our_Bass

using C as our root

C sus2 is C D G
C sus4 is C F G

A sus chord is both of these combined
C sus is C D F G

I disagree with this.

The suspension, especially if not specified, would be the third being replaced by the fourth. "Sus 2" is not actually a suspension. It is often used in pop, especially by guitarists, to indicate a chord in which the third is dropped and the second added.

A guitarist might write: "Dsus4 D Dsus2 D" to indicate the move of "g f# e f#" within the chord.

[HaVIC5]

Analyze modern jazz solos extensively enough end you'll find that there really are no "rules" when it comes to contemporary improvisation. There are instances of Miles sitting on A natural over two A sections of Bb rhythm changes. Back a few centuries, in Bach's first WTC prelude, there is an arpeggiated M7b9. I know no scale outside of Indian music that utilizes M7 and b9.

Well, if you put an analysis on the note A natural to all the chords Rhythm Changes, you can see there isn't really anything strikingly atypical about it. Playing an A works over the A sections because the chords are largely diatonic, and it works nicely in the B section as the 5 of the D7, 9 of the G7, 13 of the C7 and 3 of the F7. I think Miles doing stuff like playing the major 3 over a minor 7 chord like on Footprints is way cooler, and way beyond the realm of analysis like this.

And Bach has some crazy stuff, but you can still analyze things like that functionally because in the situation you just mentioned, he likely was performing some sort of crazy modulation or otherwise rather than exploring that particular scalar tonlaity. BTW, if it was a single scale rather than a combination of two, it could be the double harmonic minor (byzantine scale, persian scale, etc, 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7), which has both a b9 and a major 7, and you could represent this in tertian notation in the key of C quite simply by way of the chord Gdim7/C.

I'm just being overly nerdy right now, though, I agree with all your statements.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by All_¥our_Bass

using C as our root

C sus2 is C D G
C sus4 is C F G

A sus chord is both of these combined
C sus is C D F G

I know nothing about sus7 chords.

No, that chord is a G7sus4, not a "C sus". You can't suspend a third twice, because it ends up sounding like a completely different chord. As I've argued before, although suspending the second works for classical theory (actually called retardation), in modern popular music, it doesn't work because it isn't a dissonance, and doesn't need to resolve.

[chicagodoubler]

There absolutely is a chord called sus add 3. It means that the 3rd is on top, which avoids the dissonance of 3-4 which is the interval of a m2nd or m9th, both of which are crunchy. Putting the 3rd on top creates a M7th which is consonant in comparison. Alot of contemporary jazzers like this chord. And yes, for some reason, we still call it a sus chord. Easier to say "Csus add 3" than "C11, but please put the 3rd on top of your voicing to avoid the dissonance between the 3rd and 4th."


Oh yeah Havic5- you're dead on with the Miles analysis. It makes no sense in the context of the A section, but sets up the B perfectly. Easy, clean answer.

And the Bach example is just funny- check it out and you'll see what I'm talking about. Even though modern theory is largely based on Bach's work, he broke every rule before it was even written down!

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by osciphex

Is "root, fourth, fifth" really the appropriate way to think about a suspended chord? I think Mark Levine has defined a suspended chord as "a chord voiced such that the major 4th does not sound like an avoid note" ; he doesn't explicitly say that the 3rd is omitted. Could I make a different inversion of the chord that contained both the 3rd and 4th and didn't sound dissonant?

Yes, Mark Levine does offer modern examples of the 3rd and 4th tones co-existing. He has revised the traditional definition in order to accomodate this chord voicing.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

There absolutely is a chord called sus add 3. It means that the 3rd is on top, which avoids the dissonance of 3-4 which is the interval of a m2nd or m9th, both of which are crunchy. Putting the 3rd on top creates a M7th which is consonant in comparison. Alot of contemporary jazzers like this chord. And yes, for some reason, we still call it a sus chord. Easier to say "Csus add 3" than "C11, but please put the 3rd on top of your voicing to avoid the dissonance between the 3rd and 4th."

This is the voicing I was referring to. The "Csus add3" sure sounds funny, but makes perfect sense. Thanks for the info.

[KayCee]

BTW, Mark Levine states on page 44 of The Jazz Theory Book, "Sus chords function as V chords".

Not that this is gospel truth or anything, but hey, SOMEBODY's gotta back me up!

[HaVIC5]

There absolutely is a chord called sus add 3. It means that the 3rd is on top, which avoids the dissonance of 3-4 which is the interval of a m2nd or m9th, both of which are crunchy. Putting the 3rd on top creates a M7th which is consonant in comparison. Alot of contemporary jazzers like this chord. And yes, for some reason, we still call it a sus chord. Easier to say "Csus add 3" than "C11, but please put the 3rd on top of your voicing to avoid the dissonance between the 3rd and 4th."

That's really interesting, I've never heard of a Csus add3 chord, but it makes sense. I'm actually inclined to name that sort of structure a Csus4 (add 10) or Csus4(10), because it reinforces the notion that the third should be on top and is a harmonic "tension" to the chord tones, but I do agree with you that naming it a C11 (or, in more specific Berklee terms, C7(11)) doesn't get the point across at all.

BTW, Mark Levine states on page 44 of The Jazz Theory Book, "Sus chords function as V chords".

Not that this is gospel truth or anything, but hey, SOMEBODY's gotta back me up!

It can also function as a II-7, and...as a suspended chord which is its own form of subdominant. For every instance of a sus7 functioning as a dominant, I could probably find an instance of it functioning as a subdominant. But I think this argument has been beaten into the ground, anyway.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

It can also function as a II-7, and...as a suspended chord which is its own form of subdominant. For every instance of a sus7 functioning as a dominant, I could probably find an instance of it functioning as a subdominant. But I think this argument has been beaten into the ground, anyway.

Agreed.

This "sus4 (add 3)" is an interesting addition to this thread, though, so I'd like to delve into that one a bit. Interestingly, the chord doesn't really sound especially dissonant with that voicing. It seems to have a stronger tendency to resolve up a fourth with the addition of the third (a "leading tone"?). Is this chord also used as "dom7sus4 (add 3)"? In this case we would have the tritone interval built into the chord as well.

Total respect, HaVIC5 and chicagodoubler, you guys sure know your stuff!

[chicagodoubler]

dom7 sus 4 add 3 is the same chord, essentially.

Even if this or any other chord sounds like it "should" move anywhere, it really can move wherever the heck you want to take it. Try resolving a sus chord to basically any other quality of chord on any of the other 11 roots, and you can find a way to make the voice leading work. Same for using it in any other function ie dominant or even tonic. Because it's not a conventional tertian harmony, the sus enjoys alot more freedom in motion.

Wow I think we've covered everything anyone would ever want to know about sus chords...

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

dom7 sus 4 add 3 is the same chord, essentially.

Even if this or any other chord sounds like it "should" move anywhere, it really can move wherever the heck you want to take it. Try resolving a sus chord to basically any other quality of chord on any of the other 11 roots, and you can find a way to make the voice leading work. Same for using it in any other function ie dominant or even tonic. Because it's not a conventional tertian harmony, the sus enjoys alot more freedom in motion.

Wow I think we've covered everything anyone would ever want to know about sus chords...

Totally agree with all of this, but want to clarify my use of terms.

I don't equate the phrase "expected resolution" with "should resolve to..." or "must resolve to..." in any way. No matter what a chord's "official" function might be, it can go anywhere, with some choices being more of a surprise to the ears than others.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

There absolutely is a chord called sus add 3. It means that the 3rd is on top, which avoids the dissonance of 3-4 which is the interval of a m2nd or m9th, both of which are crunchy. Putting the 3rd on top creates a M7th which is consonant in comparison. Alot of contemporary jazzers like this chord. And yes, for some reason, we still call it a sus chord. Easier to say "Csus add 3" than "C11, but please put the 3rd on top of your voicing to avoid the dissonance between the 3rd and 4th."

I see where you're coming from. Theoretically, it is not a suspended chord, but it's convenient shorthand.

[osciphex]

http://www.lucaspickford.com/tokyo1.jpg

Let's see.. "D sus b9" Now does this mean a D9 chord with no third and a flatted 9th? Or is it a Dsus4 chord with an added 9th?

Also, side comment, why write "A6/9", wouldn't "A6/B" be the same thing and more understandable?

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by osciphex

http://www.lucaspickford.com/tokyo1.jpg

Let's see.. "D sus b9" Now does this mean a D9 chord with no third and a flatted 9th? Or is it a Dsus4 chord with an added 9th?

Also, side comment, why write "A6/9", wouldn't "A6/B" be the same thing and more understandable?

A sus4(b9) (more typically 7sus4(b9)) chord is a sus4 chord with an added minor ninth above the root. Another way you can think of D7sus4(b9) is C-/D. The notes in that chord would be D F G C and then Eb tension. This sort of chord is a very spicy one indeed, and doesn't typically have much usage, but it can function in the same way a regular sus4 chord does - both dominant and subdominant to the tonic. In this particular case its functioning as the V of VI-7.

With regards to the "A6/9", you're getting the slash chord confused with the quality "6/9". A 6/9 chord is a peculiar kind of major chord that includes both the 9 and the 6 working together to give the impression of a 7 without actually having the major 7 in the chord. 6/9 chords almost invariably function as the tonic. A 6/9 would be spelled A C# E F# B.

[Liko]

Chord markings tend to be somewhat non-standardized when you get into suspendeds, additions, and other "cluster chords".

I personally would read sus2 as R-2-4-5 unless I saw in staff form that the chord was otherwise. If I saw Csus, I would play R-4-5. If I saw C2, it would be R-2-5 (possibly C-2-3-5, but in multiple octaves that's more commonly written Cadd9 or Cadd2). Therefore sus2 is a combination of the two chords. The writer could be trying to say that the chord should be suspended downwards (C2), but in most songs I've found where the second is included, the fourth is in the chord also (the chord is then suspended both ways and could therefore resolve to any number of chords: Bb, Bdim, Dmin, G or Gmin, just for a few examples. Normally it resolves to C or G like a sus4 would).

[WildManDan]

As a complete newbie to this, please tell me which bass line notes to play for the Dsus4, Dsus2, Asus4. Nothing sonds right to me.
Thanks.

Into the Mystic, performed by Van Morrison


key: D
Intro: Dsus4 D Dsus2 D

D Dsus4 D Dsus4
We were born before the wind, also younger than the sun
A Asus4 A D Dsus4 D Dsus2 D
'Ere the bonny boat was won, as we sailed into the mystic
Hark now hear the sailors cry-y-y, smell the sea and touch the sky
Let your soul and spirit fly into the mystic

F#m G D Dsus4 D
And when that foghorn whistle blows, (you know) I will be comin' home
F# G A Asus4 A
And when that foghorn whistle blows, I've gotta hear it
I don't have to fear it and
D
I wanna rock your gypsy soul, just like way back in the days of old
A D
And magnificently we will fold, into the mystic
(Yeah, together)

+- CHORDS USED -------------+
| |
| Dsus4 - X X 0 2 3 3 |
| D - X X 0 2 3 2 |
| Dsus2 - X X 0 2 3 0 |
| A - X 0 2 2 2 0 |
| Asus4 - X 0 2 2 3 0 |
| F#m - 2 4 4 2 2 2 |
| G - 3 2 0 0 3 3 |
| F# - 2 4 4 3 2 2 |
| |
+___________________________+

Originally Posted by KayCee

I disagree with this.

The suspension, especially if not specified, would be the third being replaced by the fourth. "Sus 2" is not actually a suspension. It is often used in pop, especially by guitarists, to indicate a chord in which the third is dropped and the second added.

A guitarist might write: "Dsus4 D Dsus2 D" to indicate the move of "g f# e f#" within the chord.

[chicagodoubler]

Dude.

Doesn't matter if it's Dsus or D7b13. Play the D!!!!

Root on the downbeat, baby. It's what we get payed for!