What do you know about the LCCTOTO?

[AlphaMale]

What do you know about The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization?

[HaVIC5]

It just gives a different label on everything you already know. If you want specifics, you'll have to buy the book, and that costs hundreds of dollars.

[DocBop]

I still have my copy of the book form the 70's. It's very popular with Jazz soloists back then. Basic idea is Lydian is the true major scale, which makes sense since it handles the perfect 4th avoid note.

It's an interesting read once you have all your improv is at an intermediate or higher level. Better to master the fundamentals first.

[Hoover]

Whoa...not a topic for a short, pithy, one-sentence answer. When I was in grad school I took a semester of the Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization taught by its inventor, George Russell. Suffice to say it's a very detailed approach to using chords & scales that is based on equal parts mysticism and a profoundly ignorant misinterpretation of science and how the overtone series works, yet if you get past those aspects of its origins can yield some intensely beautiful harmonies that just wouldn't occur to someone steeped in a more "traditional" jazz harmony pedagogy.

Despite butting heads with Professor Russell on a number of issues I came away admiring the work that went into the Concept. It's a very handy tool for composing, I've used it on a number of my own works.

But to explain it? Err, have you got several days?

[Jim Carr]

I have generally found George Russell's book to be tough sledding, though to be sure I have the deepest respect for the man and his work.

In 1968, David Baker produced an exercise book "Techniques of Improvisation" in four volumes. Vol. 1 draws heavily on Russell's teachings. Vol. 1 does set out to make the lydian chromatic concept a bit more practical, but without instructions from a knowledgeable teacher, and more knowledge about the system, applying the book is somewhat mysterious.

The copious exercises consist of interval patterns unfolding along adjacent tones of the various scales. It does not appear that the interval patterns must only contain notes of one of the given scales (see below), but rather are anchored by a relationship between the initial note (a scale tone) and the next note which begins the rest of the interval pattern. These patterns, including the initial pitch are of various sizes (2, 3, 4, 5 pitches). Each exercise's series of patterns is the same size, and progresses ascending or descending through a given scale.

I have vol. 1. Besides exercises and a listening list, there is the following listing of the 9 scales of the lydian concept. I am referring to a table on page 6 of the 1974 edition of volume I, published by downbeat (DB Music Workshop Publications). There is no ISBN on my edition. There is a LOC cat. No. 72-206758.

Here is a summary of the scale table without the music notation of Baker's original (1 = C).

1. lydian
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8

2. lydian augmented
1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7 8

3. lydian diminished
1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7 8

4. auxiliary diminished (n.b., octatonic)
1 2 b3 4 #4 #5 6 7 8

5. auxiliary augmented (n.b., no 6th degree--equivalent to whole-tone collection)
1 2 3 #4 #5 b7 8

6. auxiliary diminished blues (n.b., octatonic)
1 b2 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7 8

7. major
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

8. blues
1 b3 3 4 #4 5 b7 8

9. lydian chromatic (n.b., all 12 tones)
1 #1 2 #2 3 4 #4 5 #5 6 #6 7 8

[HaVIC5]

I just don't understand why reorganizing all of western music into a lydian scale is necessary. It ISN'T how the vast majority of music was written or constructed (although, it's a neat little compositional principle), and so analyzing music in terms of the "concept" seems to be a procrustean bed of sorts - forcing music into a system that wasn't at all how it was conceptualized. Claiming the lydian scale is "more pure" in terms of overtones than the major scale is a huge stretch - the justly intoned 7th fifth above a given tonic is almost exactly halfway in between #4 and 4. Again, I think it's an interesting concept for compositional reorganization, but in terms of analysis of other music and music in general it falls flat.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I just don't understand why reorganizing all of western music into a lydian scale is necessary. It ISN'T how the vast majority of music was written or constructed (although, it's a neat little compositional principle), and so analyzing music in terms of the "concept" seems to be a procrustean bed of sorts - forcing music into a system that wasn't at all how it was conceptualized. Claiming the lydian scale is "more pure" in terms of overtones than the major scale is a huge stretch - the justly intoned 7th fifth above a given tonic is almost exactly halfway in between #4 and 4. Again, I think it's an interesting concept for compositional reorganization, but in terms of analysis of other music and music in general it falls flat.

+1

I spent most of the day re-researching Russell's concept and music. For me, his theory falls into the category of "very attractive" IF you are one of those who love such things. I have been there. However, I have changed and come to believe that improvisation is more about ones own ears and voice, not one's theoretical point of view.

Listen to a lot of music. Find things you love and understand them in a way that allows you to both posses them and utilize what you find. YMMV, IMHO, etc.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I just don't understand why reorganizing all of western music into a lydian scale is necessary. It ISN'T how the vast majority of music was written or constructed (although, it's a neat little compositional principle), and so analyzing music in terms of the "concept" seems to be a procrustean bed of sorts - forcing music into a system that wasn't at all how it was conceptualized.

Exactly. +1. Whomp, there it is.

The LCCOTO is a fabulous tool to have in your composer's toolbox. It is 100% useless (or, to be slightly more charitible, 100% misguided) as an analytical tool. Unfortunately, Russell felt that in order to justify The Concept's validity he had to show how it could be applied to other composer's already-respected works. Unfortunately, in doing so Russell downgraded the value of The Concept by making it appear like a cheap & ineffective form of hindsight...the Monday Morning Quarterback Syndrome.

[Scot]

Here's what I know about "The Concept":

1.) I had to practice saying the title of the book to myself a bunch so that, just in case I had to appear knowledgeable in elitist jazz circles, I could articulate it with a moderate degree of competency.

2.) Because of this book's existence, I have to pretend I understand why the Lydian scale is a better "parent" scale then the Ionian, particularly in the presence of the above-mentioned circles. Hey, I love playing a #11 over a major 7 chord as much as the next guy but I just don't hear lydian as the center of the universe.

3.) I have to hail it as a landmark in jazz education, even though it is probably the most avoided book in my music library.

4.) It gives me a migraine just thinking about it.

[kerrycares]

if you're looking for jazz harmony or improvisation, try the Barry Harris method available on www.jazzbooks.com.
there are two volumes and both features a dvd and a book that explains the dominant 7th being the strongest melodic tonal center for jazz. i have found that the theory also holds true for funk and gospel as well.
i have both the lccoto and the Barry Harris Method and the BH method is a little more palatable.
both are great!

[ryco]

Pair this up with The Melodic Minor Harmony and you're good to go!

I've heard of The Lydian Concept but have never studied it.
Just more modal offerings, which are always interesting. Same with Harmonic Minor modes.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by ryco

Pair this up with The Melodic Minor Harmony and you're good to go!

Actually, "The Concept" covers what is known to most as melodic Minor Harmony.

Also, it's not just more modal offerings. It's a reorganization of already existing concepts.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I just don't understand why reorganizing all of western music into a lydian scale is necessary

Originally Posted by Hoover

Exactly. +1. Whomp, there it is.

Originally Posted by Scot

Actually, "The Concept" covers what is known to most as melodic Minor Harmony.
Also, it's not just more modal offerings. It's a reorganization of already existing concepts.

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Here is a summary of the scale table without the music notation of Baker's original (1 = C).

1. lydian
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8

2. lydian augmented
1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7 8

3. lydian diminished
1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7 8

4. auxiliary diminished (n.b., octatonic)
1 2 b3 4 #4 #5 6 7 8

5. auxiliary augmented (n.b., no 6th degree--equivalent to whole-tone collection)
1 2 3 #4 #5 b7 8

6. auxiliary diminished blues (n.b., octatonic)
1 b2 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7 8

7. major
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

8. blues
1 b3 3 4 #4 5 b7 8

9. lydian chromatic (n.b., all 12 tones)
1 #1 2 #2 3 4 #4 5 #5 6 #6 7 8

Ok. This is the part of understanding these different concepts I didn't post. I should have been more complete.
I'm going to go a little off topic here and make the same observation as HaVIC5 noted above. I don't understand why a whole separate harmonization concept is realized just because one note of a Major Ionian, which is the basis for most western Harmony, is changed. Granted the Lydian mode is already part of major western Harmony.

The same with Melodic Minor Harmony. One note is changed, albeit arguably the most important tone in a western scale - the third. Basically a Major scale with a flat third - the ascending Melodic Minor - and a whole Harmony concept arises. That's just weird to me. Although it's all interesting.

It's just interesting to see what people do with music. It's good to share and discuss and think about, but going as far as writing big books and dedicating classes to these concepts is more interesting than the concepts themselves.

I mean even the Harmonic Minor offers a completely different bunch of tone sequences (modes) to study and consider. And those goofy 8 tone diminished scales that are a big part of the Jazz Harmony language. Who decides what is important and worthy of mass study? I mean it's all valid and interesting, but one could set up a different Harmony concept for every altered note and beyond. Imagine

[Hoover]

What's not mentioned in Jim Carr's summary of scales is George Russell's very explicit (albeit obtuse) descriptions of how these scales function and therefore when to use them.

His approach is very different from the traditional chord-scale approach to jazz: Russell is less concerned with how scales combine vertically to form chords and more concerned with how scales yield a directed motion -- what he calls "Horizontal Tonal Gravity". (He also acknowledges "Vertical Tonal Gravity", but considers that a less advanced aspect of The Concept.) This directed motion can be either "outward going" or "inward going", though I can't recall the specific implications of that nomenclature. But these Gravities allow the intrepid musician to do a number of things, including (but not limited to)
implying the underlying chord changes while simultaneously referring to the overall key center of the piece, or choosing the degree to which one will embrace consonance or dissonance -- i.e., how "out" the note choices will be -- while still maintaining a structured audible relationship to the tonality.

But I suspect what Russell would insist is the important thing to take away from his Concept is not that it is "a whole separate harmonization concept" based on changing one note of Major Ionian (sic), but rather that there is a reason why Lydian should have been the parent scale for our current harmonization concept. His reasoning is equal parts suspect and insightful imho, but that's the basic tenet upon which all other aspects of The Concept are based.

[EADG mx]

So from what I gather he's claimed that lydian is a more pure basis for harmony because of the way that the intervals occur in the harmonic series

But if that were the case, wouldn't the scale have to be lydian dominant (so-called the "acoustic scale" because the pitches relate to acoustics and overtones)?

First harmonics of the overtone series in C:

C G C E G Bb C D E F♯ G A Bb


lydian dominant is bolded.

[Jim Carr]

IMHO, all appeals to nature to prove or justify a musical system are pointless, as they all end up being a theory of nature as well as a theory of music. Plato, Aristotle, numberless theorists between 1200 and 1600, as well as the more familiar Rameau, Schenker, Schoenberg, and Hindemith all do it. They all differ and all prove nothing by doing it, IMHO.

[Scot]

Jim's statement pretty much best sums it up for me:

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

However, I have changed and come to believe that improvisation is more about ones own ears and voice, not one's theoretical point of view.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

So from what I gather he's claimed that lydian is a more pure basis for harmony because of the way that the intervals occur in the harmonic series

Not quite; George has two reasons for why Lydian is the preferred basis for harmony:

1) if you arrange a stack of 5ths (C-G-D-A-E-B-F#) in stepwise order (C-D-E-F#-G-A-B), you get a Lydian scale. This is important to George because the 5th is the first "tonically-biased interval" in the overtone series. (I have no idea what he means by that.)

2) the tertian ordering of the Lydian scale will sound "at unity" with the tonic major triad. This idea of "sounding at unity" is one of the fundamental points of The Concept. George says that the structure of the Ionian Major scale is a 4th + a 5th, and that 4th gives the Major scale an unstable movement towards resolution, as well as a "secondary tonic" halfway up the scale. (Hence the name "dia-tonic".) Whereas the structure of the Lydian scale is a 5th + a 4th, which yields not movement but rather unity, stability, rest. In George's words, "the major scale is in a state of becoming ...it is temporaly oriented:
linear, horizontal, goal oriented, seeking resolution. The Lydian scale just is."

Hey man, I'm just the messenger...