What does "I", "ii", "iii" etc chord mean?

[Michael Campbel]

I'm old, (and used to be a drummer), so go slow and use small words.

I'm curious about chords. Specifically, what's it mean to say a "I" chord vs. a "ii" chord (and so on)? I've been learning scales and their arpeggios so I have a VERY little knowledge of that, but when someone says a "ii" chord, ... I'm a bit lost.

Here's what I think about it, but wanted some confirmation and/or a better description.

If we have a scale, the I chord is made up of the first (root), third, and fifth (and seventh?) notes of that scale. Yes, No? If that's right, is it the case then that a "ii" chord is simply a chord made up of the 2nd, 4th, 6th of the notes in that scale? And then so on up the line? 3,5,7; 4,6,..1?; etc.?

Is it correct that the I is a major chord since the second note; the 3, is a major third away from the first note? And the "ii" is lowercase (minor?) since the middle note ("4" of the scale, but second note in the chord) is a MINOR third away from the 2nd note (of the scale, the first note of the chord)?

I am buying a book on theory so maybe this is answered there, and I have looked at some of the music theory links here too, but this basic bit seems to elude my few remaining grey cells.



Thanks!

[dmusic148]

It's actually simpler that that. Always use the major scale as a reference. The key of the song is the 1. So if you are playing in the key of G, D would be the 5 chord, and so on. C would be the 4, etc. Just use a G major scale in this case.

[WyrdoBass]

In the key of G:

I= G
ii=A
iii= B
IV= C
V= D
vi= E
vii= F

a I-IV-V progression in the key of G would then be G-C-D.

[nickonbass]

Just to elaborate.

It's all talking in numbers when you use ..... the numbers.

The I chord is the Root chord of whatever key the song is in.

The ii chord is chord off the 2nd degree (note) in the scale RELATIVE to the Root of the scale you are in.

So if you are in C. The C Major scale is

C, D, E, F, G, A, B,, C

Label the chords as follows
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii. I.

From the above you can see that the V chord in C is G.
The ii chord is D etc.

Now if you are in G the G Major scale is

G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G.

Label the chords as follows
G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G.
I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii. I.

From the above you can see that the V chord in G is D.
The ii chord is A etc.

Also note that the chords in capitals are in capitals cause they are Major. The chords in lower case are in lower case cause they are minor.

Funnily enough I was writing up some stuff similar to this yesterday on my website for this forum which is here:
http://www.freejamtracks.com/play-bass-modes.html

It's in a similar vein.

Hope that all helps.

Cheers,
Nick.

Originally Posted by WyrdoBass

In the key of G:

I= G
ii=A
iii= B
IV= C
V= D
vi= E
vii= F

a I-IV-V progression in the key of G would then be G-C-D.

+1

[Michael Campbel]

Originally Posted by nickonbass

The I chord is the Root chord of whatever key the song is in.

The ii chord is chord off the 2nd degree (note) in the scale RELATIVE to the Root of the scale you are in.

Ok, so when you say the "ii" chord, what notes are in it? I think I understand now that "ii" means the root of the /chord/ is the second note of the /scale/, but that only gives me one note; the first one. How are the other notes derived?

Originally Posted by nickonbass

From the above you can see that the V chord in C is G.
The ii chord is D etc.

When you say "the ii chord is D", you mean a chord with a "D" in it ... how are the other notes figured out?

I think THAT is my biggest mental block right now.

Thanks!

[Milky]

Originally Posted by Michael Campbel

Ok, so when you say the "ii" chord, what notes are in it? I think I understand now that "ii" means the root of the /chord/ is the second note of the /scale/, but that only gives me one note; the first one. How are the other notes derived?



When you say "the ii chord is D", you mean a chord with a "D" in it ... how are the other notes figured out?

I think THAT is my biggest mental block right now.

Thanks!

In this example, the ii chord is D minor. I will try to explain it how it was explained to me.

You have the key of C
C D E F G A B C
So the I chord is C E G, the ii chord is D F A. The ii is a minor chord since in the actual key of D the third is F#. So here we have 1 b3 5 which is a minor chord. You can carry this out with the rest of the chords to see how they are developed. Hope this helps!

[RedLeg]

your tracking so far Michael.

check this out. learn with your ears too.
stick to triads, for now.
play any major scale, in 2 octaves (very important).
play every triad in your major scale off of every scale degree.
remember how this sounds
remember the values of triad for your scale degrees.
you can do this for natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic (ascending)

*when you're playing a ii triad your still playing a root 3rd and 5th, they are just the scale tones 2, 4, and 6 in the tonic (I) scale. In the ii modal scale (dorian) they are 1, 3, 5. It is completely relative to the terms in which you are describing them.

This is the meat and potatoes of harmony

quick formulas.
Maj = maj 3 + min 3
min = min 3 + Maj 3
Aug = Maj 3 + Maj 3
dim = min 3 + min 3

C-E-G is major, E is a maj3 interval from C, G is a min3 from E.

the scale tones 1, 4 and 5 are perfect and can only be described as perfect, augmented, or diminished
*no such animal as a min 5!
everything else can be major or minor, as well as augmented and diminished.

hope this helps

[kingbee]

Lower case numerals represent minor chords and the upper case numerals represent major chords. So the classic 2-5-1 turnaround (Dm-G-C) would be written as ii-V-I.

The entire sequence would be I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii (C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim)

It's worth getting this drilled into your head because it will allow you to play in different keys more easily and start to pick out progressions on your own. If someone calls out a I-vi-ii-V change, you can just jump right in without having to ask for each chord.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by kingbee

The entire sequence would be I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii (C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim)

Learn this in common keys would be a great help so no matter what key you're in, you know the relationship of all the notes/chords in the scale.

This might be another way to look at it (may help or not):
C Major scale (Capitals=major chords, lower case=minor chords)

1---2--3----4---5---6----7
I---ii---iii---IV---V---vi---vii
C--d---e----F---G---a----b (Scale)
E--f----g---A----B---c---d
G--a--- b---C----D---e---f

[nickonbass]

Michael you have almost got it.

In the key of C.

Yep - the I chord is C.

The ii, iii, IV etc chords are the chords from the notes from the C scale - ie the key we are in.

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii. I

You've got that - now you want to know what the notes are off each chord.

We are in the key of C.

Our scale from the I chord are the notes above, in sequence from the I chord. ie C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.

What are the notes from the ii chord?

When we look at the ii chord the Root note of our scale become the ii, ie the D.

Since we are still in the key of C we use the SAME notes from the key of C, the difference is that we are starting on the D. We are saying that the Root note of our chord is D and the notes are the same notes from the key we are in which is C.

So our scale off the D chord becomes:

D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D.

See?

All we've done is move up one note and effectively shift the scale along. We are using the EXACT same notes.

You can work it out like this (for any key):

1. What key are you in?
2. Write out the Major scale for that key.
3. The chords are called I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii in sequence with the notes from the Major scale of the key you are in.
4. The Root of each chord is the note from the sequence. The scale off that Root note is the Root note followed by the next note, followed in sequence using the SAME notes from the original key that you started in.

Now here's THE MOMENT OF TRUTH:

What are each of these scales we are using all from the same key called?

These are what we call MODES.

These scales are how we derive the modes.

The C Major scale we began with is also known as: Ionian mode.

If we move along to the second degree of the C Major scale, which is D (to the ii chord) and use that as our Root note and then start a new scale from the D, using the same notes from the key of C that we are in then we have a scale which is called the Dorian mode.

Our scale (the notes you are asking) off the ii chord is:
D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D.
Notice they are the same notes that are used in the C Major scale. The difference is that the space between each note of the sequence has changed. For the C Ionian mode: C to D is 1 tone and D to E is 1 tone. For the D Dorian mode. D to E is 1 tone but E to F is 1 semi tone. So the interval of the 2nd to 3rd notes in C Ionian is different from the interval of the 2nd to 3rd notes in D Dorian.

This changes the sound of the chords we play off each degree of the scale.

Well taking the Ionian mode (our C Major scale) we have the notes:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

If we label each of the above scale tones from 1 to 7 we have the scale tones:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

To build a triad (3 note chord) from these notes you take the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes from the above.

These notes are C, E and G.

The interval C to E is a Major 3rd (2 tones by definition)
The interval C to G is a Perfect 5th (3 and 1/2 tones)

A triad made up with those intervals is called a Major chord.

Thus the triad off the I chord is a Major chord.

Now let's look at our D Dorian scale.

If we label each of the above scale tones in D Dorian from 1 to 7 we have the scale tones:

D, E, F, G, A, B, C
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Again, to build a triad (3 note chord) from these notes you take the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes from the above.

These notes are D, F and A.

The interval D to F is a minor 3rd (1 and 1/2 tones)
The interval D to A is a Perfect 5th (3 and 1/2 tones)

A triad made up with those intervals is called a minor chord.

Thus the triad off the ii chord is a minor chord and we show this by using the lower case ii.

Now you go away and do some work.

Write out the scale off the iii chord.

So your Root note is E.
Use the same notes from the C Major scale in sequence starting on the E.
Then write out the numbers 1 to 7 under the notes.
Then write out what the triad off the E will be.
Is it Major or minor?

Do the same for the Root notes off the IV, V, vi and vii.

Write out each scale for each chord.

The modes are known as follows:

Off the
I chord: Ionian
ii chord: Dorian
iii chord: Phrygian
IV chord: Lydian
V chord: Mixolydian
vi chord: Aeolian
vii chord: Locrian

Read the above. Write out what I told you to write out (post it and I'll tell you if it's correct) and also read what I wrote on my site that I put up cause I'm saying the same thing on there again: http://www.freejamtracks.com/play-bass-modes.html

The other thing you can do is write out the chords in 7ths.

ie write out the Root, 3rd, 5th and 7th degree off each chord/for each mode.

Then you'll have where the full picture comes from which is:

I Maj7, ii mi7, iii mi7, IV Maj7, V7, vii mi7, vii mi7b5.

Start with the triads first, stack the 7ths on at the ends.

If you just read what I wrote and say, I get it you'll forget about it. If you write it out (which will only take an hour or so) then your life will become easier musically.

Once you've written it out for the key of C do the same thing each day - 1 key per day. It'll probably take you 1/2 an hour each day and you'll see the patterns and realize what is going on.

I hope this helps. I hope I've explained it so it's obvious for you. If you don't understand something it's because I haven't explained it well.

Any questions just ask.

[nickonbass]

......... damn, I just missed Family Guy!

[nickonbass]

oh - and pps - after you write them all out in C - take each scale and then go play them with the jam tracks on my site. That's the whole reason I put them up there. Because of a similar post.

[JTE]

Ach, don't make it so hard. Write out a C major scale

C D E F G A B C

Repeat, only start at the third note, and write it out on top of the first ones you wrote (I'm serious- get a peice of paper and WRITE this stuff out!).
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Again...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

... and one more time...

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Nowl, look at those stacks of notes. The first one is a C major7. It's built on the first note of the scale. It's the I chord. The chord built on the second note of the scale is a Dmin7, and it's the ii chord. Etc.

As posted above the pattern is:

I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj7
V 7 (technically a dominant 7, but we just assume if it the name only says "7", it's a dominant)
vii Min7
viii min7b5 or half-diminished (NOT a diminised)

That's what it means. If you harmonize the scale in thirds, you get the chords that are inherent in that key.

jte

[PaulMacCnj]

I Don't Play Like My Aunt Lily

A nice way to remember the order...

Originally Posted by nickonbass

These are what we call MODES.

I chord: Ionian
ii chord: Dorian
iii chord: Phrygian
IV chord: Lydian
V chord: Mixolydian
vi chord: Aeolian
vii chord: Locrian

[alexwittscheck]

For the purposes of what you are wanting to do the original post is very much on track. I just wouldn't add the 7th into a "I" chord.
But hey, that's just me.

[Michael Campbel]

Thanks everyone! It will take awhile to digest all of this (especially after 2 double stacks from Wendy's), but I feel much more comfortable with it all.

Thanks again!

[dmrogers]

Michael,

You got a lot of good advise in the above posts. Good stuff to study.

When you get time, you might want to look at this site.

It is a pretty straightforward approach to theory. In addition, this book is really good for beginning theory. It doesn't get so deep that you get overwhelmed.

Good luck!

[JTE]

Originally Posted by alexwittscheck

For the purposes of what you are wanting to do the original post is very much on track. I just wouldn't add the 7th into a "I" chord.
But hey, that's just me.

In actual practice I'll agree with you. But for clarity of learning how chords come from scales, it's important. If they're just triads, you have three major triads, and then the question becomes why do we add the 7th to the V chord? Learn all the chords out to the 7th (i.e. four-note chords) so you understand the differences between them.

jte

PS, I still don't see the utility of telling someone that the ii chord comes from Dorian mode. It comes right out of the diatonic major scale. That's why it's called the ii of the key of C, not the i of the D Dorian.

You can harmonize any scale to get its native chords. And if you're truely playing in D Dorian instead of C Major, then your chord notation should reflect that the D is the tonic, not the C. But to say the ii chord comes from dorian mode, totally obliterates the fact that the ii chord is built on the second note of the major scale.

If I'm in D Dorian, my i chord is Dminy, my v chord is Amin7, etc. But if by "ii" we mean a Dmin chord, then we're firmly in the key of C.

jte

[alexwittscheck]

Originally Posted by JTE

PS, I still don't see the utility of telling someone that the ii chord comes from Dorian mode. It comes right out of the diatonic major scale. That's why it's called the ii of the key of C, not the i of the D Dorian.

You can harmonize any scale to get its native chords. And if you're truely playing in D Dorian instead of C Major, then your chord notation should reflect that the D is the tonic, not the C. But to say the ii chord comes from dorian mode, totally obliterates the fact that the ii chord is built on the second note of the major scale.

If I'm in D Dorian, my i chord is Dminy, my v chord is Amin7, etc. But if by "ii" we mean a Dmin chord, then we're firmly in the key of C.

jte

Yeah, that is more of what I was getting at. That he should ignore all of that. Haha.