What does this mean?

[squirtle]

Blue Bossa...
The song in C minor means I can play the modes of Eb major over most of te song. However, one website I just visited says not to play the A in the C minor because the guitar and horn players don't like it. So I change the C minor (Aolean) to a C Dorian to make them happy. The question is, do all the other modes of the Eb major stay the same except now I have two Dorians (C and F in Eb) or does the whole sucker change to an Ab major song.
(Just one more reason to hate horn players)
Squirtle

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by squirtle

Blue Bossa...
So I change the C minor (Aolean) to a C Dorian to make them happy. )
Squirtle

LOL

Are your horn players really that stupid?

[onlyclave]

This means that you don't know what key you're in to begin with.

Have you listened to a recording of "Blue Bossa" to hear what a bossa nova bass line sounds like?

[Pat C.]

Originally Posted by squirtle

Blue Bossa...
The song in C minor means I can play the modes of Eb major over most of te song. However, one website I just visited says not to play the A in the C minor because the guitar and horn players don't like it. So I change the C minor (Aolean) to a C Dorian to make them happy. The question is, do all the other modes of the Eb major stay the same except now I have two Dorians (C and F in Eb) or does the whole sucker change to an Ab major song.
(Just one more reason to hate horn players)
Squirtle

Are you referring to you bass line, or your soloing?

Using these changes as a reference: Blue Bossa.

The bass line should mostly follow the chord tones, root and 5 typically dominate in a Bossa Nova style. The Ab can/should be used in the bassline if it's part of the chord at that time - at these times a natural A should probably not be used. Cmi6 contains an A natural. Fmi7, Bb7, Db7, Abmaj7, Dm7b5 all contain Ab. As a bass player I wouldn't not hang (play on a strong beat or as more than a passing tone) on the A or Ab while playing the bassline unless it was the root or fifth.

While soloing you have big more freedom, but generally want to follow the changes. It's not incorrect that you've been told a minor key in jazz is sometimes played as dorian, but IMO it's not an absolute. And in the case of this tune, which has chords based in C natural minor, C melodic minor and Db major it is apparent that both A and Ab have a key role as a chord tone in many of the chords.

That's not to say that A natural does not work as a chord extension over some of the chords (it's the natural 6th in Cmin6 and the b9 in Ab7) or used as a passing tone or chromatically. Just as Ab can be used over some of the chords as an extension (as b9 over G7, for example).

Both the Ab and A are useful and needed notes while improvising over this tune. However, as the bass player holding down the basic harmony you have to be careful not to emphasize a harmony that the soloist is not using, or that would be dissonant with the melody. Since they are only a semitone apart the A and Ab do not work well together unless that interval is specifically called for in the harmony. Be conservative in your note choices as a supporting player until you can hear when it may be OK to stretch out a little underneath the soloist. Use both you knowledge of the chord progression and your ears as a guide to determine what to play, and when.

[dogofgod]

Originally Posted by Pat C.

Are you referring to you bass line, or your soloing?

Using these changes as a reference: Blue Bossa.

The bass line should mostly follow the chord tones, root and 5 typically dominate in a Bossa Nova style. The Ab can/should be used in the bassline if it's part of the chord at that time - at these times a natural A should probably not be used. Cmi6 contains an A natural. Fmi7, Bb7, Db7, Abmaj7, Dm7b5 all contain Ab. As a bass player I wouldn't not hang (play on a strong beat or as more than a passing tone) on the A or Ab while playing the bassline unless it was the root or fifth.

While soloing you have big more freedom, but generally want to follow the changes. It's not incorrect that you've been told a minor key in jazz is sometimes played as dorian, but IMO it's not an absolute. And in the case of this tune, which has chords based in C natural minor, C melodic minor and Db major it is apparent that both A and Ab have a key role as a chord tone in many of the chords.

That's not to say that A natural does not work as a chord extension over some of the chords (it's the natural 6th in Cmin6 and the b9 in Ab7) or used as a passing tone or chromatically. Just as Ab can be used over some of the chords as an extension (as b9 over G7, for example).

Both the Ab and A are useful and needed notes while improvising over this tune. However, as the bass player holding down the basic harmony you have to be careful not to emphasize a harmony that the soloist is not using, or that would be dissonant with the melody. Since they are only a semitone apart the A and Ab do not work well together unless that interval is specifically called for in the harmony. Be conservative in your note choices as a supporting player until you can hear when it may be OK to stretch out a little underneath the soloist. Use both you knowledge of the chord progression and your ears as a guide to determine what to play, and when.

Would transposing the horn parts to bass be a bad idea? You dont always have to play the melody but wouldn't it be great to be able to play the melody or when another instrument is taking care of your line.

[squirtle]

Have you listened to a recording of "Blue Bossa" to hear what a bossa nova bass line sounds like?

Sounds kinda like a Mexican polka band.

Pat,
Thanks for the response. I can outline the C- with a Dorian shape when backing up the soloists but an Aolean is acceptable over the C- when I solo.

[Pat C.]

Originally Posted by squirtle

Sounds kinda like a Mexican polka band.

Pat,
Thanks for the response. I can outline the C- with a Dorian shape when backing up the soloists but an Aolean is acceptable over the C- when I solo.

You could. The problem you run into is when the keys or guitar are playing a Cm6 chord with an A natural, and you throw a Ab on top it will clash. If you want that sound, hey...it's your solo.

But, technically it's not correct and that may be why the horn players commented on it.

I probably would only play it over the Cmin6 chord as a passing tone of sorts to the G or A chord tones. Or maybe land on the Ab over the end of a measure of Cmin6 to anticipate the 3rd of the Fmin7 chord. Something like that. I wouldn't hang out on it, is what I'm saying. Or, you could just hang out on it to annoy the horn players.

You mention scales and modes, and I just wanted to comment that you may want to think a little more in terms of chord tones and extensions and leading tones to and from those notes, instead of thinking: solo in C dorian.

I only say this from what I've learned from good players and my own personal experience - I've spent way too much time focusing on scales and not enough time utilizing chord tones to improvise. And I regret that, because I'm now in the process of re-vamping my improvisational vocabulary and it's tough. The best advice to you is think "chord tones" before you think "mode". Of course, you will end up using all of the above, but your melodic lines will outline and reinforce the harmony much better if the chord tones are the focus. And of course you can stretch out from there.

[Pat C.]

Originally Posted by dogofgod

Would transposing the horn parts to bass be a bad idea? You dont always have to play the melody

Definitely learn the melody. When I learn a tune I always learn the head as well as the chord changes. Well, I learn it if I can actually play it...some of the uptempo bop stuff is pretty nasty. If there are horn parts/harmonies and/or hits that a horn section may do it's always good to know where they are in the tune.

I'd guess that 95% of the time I will not play the head during a performance, that is to say I'd guess I'd only play the head on every one out of twenty tunes. But it's important to know, for several reasons:

• to see how the melody interacts with the chord harmony
• to better understand the song's form
• to know the melodic rhythm, which could/should affect the rhythm of your basslines
• to pull melodic and rhythmic ideas for soloing
• you never know when the bandleader is going to say, "bass, take the head on this one."

If possible, learn the head (and chord changes) in all twelve keys.

If you have the transcribing chops to pull horn solos off of recordings that can be very valuable.

...wouldn't it be great...when another instrument is taking care of your line.

I don't think there has ever been a time when another instrument has taken care of my line. Ever.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Pat C.

You mention scales and modes, and I just wanted to comment that you may want to think a little more in terms of chord tones and extensions and leading tones to and from those notes, instead of thinking: solo in C dorian.

+1. when someone has these mode questions in a song context, my initial response is "you're thinking way too hard." modes are nice to know but you shouldn't go so far out of your way to make everything fit nice and tidy inside a mode. there exists 12 notes for a reason, and if a note fits in a song but doesn't fit a mode, big deal. play it anyway.

plus running modes makes for really boring playing. sometimes you can actually hear modal players playing the scales, which to me is death. learn modes all you want. learn how to use them in the context of a song, too. you will learn from it. but when it comes time to play, forget about them and just play from the heart.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Pat C.

Definitely learn the melody. When I learn a tune I always learn the head as well as the chord changes. Well, I learn it if I can actually play it...some of the uptempo bop stuff is pretty nasty. If there are horn parts/harmonies and/or hits that a horn section may do it's always good to know where they are in the tune.

I'd guess that 95% of the time I will not play the head during a performance, that is to say I'd guess I'd only play the head on every one out of twenty tunes. But it's important to know, for several reasons:

• to see how the melody interacts with the chord harmony
• to better understand the song's form
• to know the melodic rhythm, which could/should affect the rhythm of your basslines
• to pull melodic and rhythmic ideas for soloing
• you never know when the bandleader is going to say, "bass, take the head on this one."

If possible, learn the head (and chord changes) in all twelve keys.

If you have the transcribing chops to pull horn solos off of recordings that can be very valuable.


I don't think there has ever been a time when another instrument when taking care of my line. Ever.

Very comprehensive advice.

Sorry about LOL, but I had, and still am having trouble to see the difference between C Aeolian with Ab moved up to A - and C Dorian

Like Pat said, there's a difference between accompaniment and soloing. In the vast majority of cases you don't need anything modal when accompanying. Everything can be arranged perfectly with major and minor scales and some chromatics.

The real point is to know how many notes you will be playing going from one MAIN chord to another, moving correctly through passing chords. This is essentially learned by studying walking bass, even if you choose to play other rhythmic patterns, like Latin grooves.

Those main chords constitute the harmonic functions and they are the 'pillars' of the song.

Blue Bossa is relatively simple with three clearcut ii(o) - V7 - i progressions. For D-7b5 > G7#5(#9) > C- the C minor scale is OK, if you keep in mind that D# (#5) resolves to D and #9 (A#) resolves to B (on beat 4?) and then to C.

(Strictly speaking, from a classic point of view, ii#5 is b6, resolving to 5 of the V7).

A 'problem' is that in D-b5 and G7#5(#9) the chord extensions are already there on beat one. Let me put it this way: I am not against bringing those in later in the bar, so G7#5(#9) can also wind up to |G G7 G7#5 G7#5#9|

For the Eb- > Ab7 > Dbmaj7 the scale of Db major will do great. A good habit for a ii -V7 - I progression is to think of the scale of the I that's going to come.

Leaves us with bar 1 -5: C- > F- > Bb7 > D-b5. Essentially the C minor scale, but you need something nice for Bb7, that can be seen as the only real passing chord of the tune, because continuing F- would have been a (less beautiful) possibility. Going from F- > Bb7 > D-b5 > G7#5(#9) you could f.e. play (notes) F Eb | D Bb |Ab F| G. It wouldn't hurt if you sneaked in a F# on beat 4 before landing on G.

The thing is, to accompany, modes aren't all that important. A more direct approach is to study the principles of walking bass, that are useful not only to bop tunes, but throughout jazz and pop music.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Chris K

LOL

Are your horn players really that stupid?

Go easy on him...it's not exclusive to his horn players.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Go easy on him...it's not exclusive to his horn players.

You're probably right.

Did you know I used to play sax?

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Did you know I used to play sax?

Hey, I used to play flute. Talk about "no respect" ...even the other horn players wouldn't let me join all their reindeer games!

[togglehead]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Hey, I used to play flute. Talk about "no respect" ...even the other horn players wouldn't let me join all their reindeer games!

At least it wasnt the Oboe...

[squirtle]

Thanks fellas.....digesting.
Squirtle

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by togglehead

At least it wasnt the Oboe...

I have a friend who I met through completely non-music-related circumstances, but who it turns out was a classical oboe major in college, with a degree from the same conservatory I attended. When I found this out I said "Wow, you should come sit in with my band, we'd love to have an oboe player!"

His response was "You guys aren't gonna beat me up, are you?"