What exactly is "in the pocket" playing?

BarkerBass · #1 05-19-2009, 07:38 AM

Recently I have been wondering how you guys here on TB would define "in the pocket playing"... your own definition, what it means to you.

As a guy who's grown up with rock and into metal and is only recently foraying into the realms of funk and jazz etc. "pocket" playing to me means being really tight but also simple... holding the bass and rhythm... I suppose you could say holding the groove but since most of my playing isn't groove orientating I find this a bit misleading. Is it possibel to play technically hard and "fancy" lines "in the pocket" or does "in the pocket" mean it's powerful and effective but simple stuff? Examples would be great.

Lets not argue over this, just state what you think. I'm eager to hear everyone's thoughts and examples

Bardley · #2 05-19-2009, 07:43 AM

I think it has to do more with the feel than the content. I always think 1.) locking with the drummer and 2.) (depending on the music) laying back on the beat just a hair to give the song the movement it needs.

It's hard to define, you just know it when you are in it and it's a good place to be.

lposavad · #3 05-19-2009, 07:45 AM

That's a decent definition. Tina Turner's 'What's Love Got To Do With It' is the first example I'd heard of playing in the pocket.

dmusic148 · #4 05-19-2009, 07:46 AM

To me it means playing as part of the team. With the drummer, with the other rhythm instruments, in a way that makes people want to tap their feet or dance. Grooving. Powerful, in a non-overt way. The kind of playing that doesn't stand out unless it suddenly stops. It can be simple or complex.
Simple: Average White Band 'Pick up the Pieces.'
Complex: Tower of Power 'Funk the Dumb Stuff.'

Asher S · #5 05-19-2009, 07:51 AM

Older post on this very topic:

What Exactly is "The Pocket"?

djero44 · #6 05-19-2009, 08:08 AM

This cat Amper from the other tread said it well:

"The term is, in my experience, generally used to describe a state reached by the rhythm section in which there seems to be a sort of mystical link between the drummer and the bassist, where no matter how far ahead or behind the beat you choose to play in order to make your musical statement, you both come back on the downbeat perfectly in time, and propelling the audience and your fellow musicians forward with a spiritual energy that just has to be experienced to be fully understood."

So did Jimmy; "You know it when you feel it."

I suppose you can find the pocket with yourself, but I think it's really an alchemical process that happens with a group or rhythm section. Gotta love it!

BarkerBass · #7 05-19-2009, 08:08 AM

great definitions, keep them coming guys.

I like the average white band example and agree with that, funky and tight, room for a few fills but powerfully and in with the beat... I think I'll keep that as a prime example...

Does in the pocket playing exist in rock or is that too driven as a whole and as a bassline to be "pocketed"?

spigmu · #8 05-19-2009, 08:23 AM

To me, pocket isn't limited to any genre. It's where the playing/players come together and the whole becomes greater than the sum of its pieces. For me, the pocket is King. If there's a pocket nothing else matters as much, not clams, not going into the chorus instead of the verse, not anything, but without a pocket everything else being correct still means much less, and not enough. If a band has no pocket, I lose interest. A great pocket and I'll watch two sets full of mistakes.

I played guitar and keys in bands over the decades where there was no pocket as I saw it, and it was a drag but there was nothing I could do to change it. Now that I've been a bassist for long enough to call myself one, I'm in a position to have the ability to play whatever role can be played to see if a pocket can be had. A new drummer recently joined a band I've been in for a long time, who plays in heavier style bands with younger guys, and at first there was a problem with our lack of pocket. But I started to see I was playing fairly behind the beat feel-wise, and he was putting the kicks on the mark but the backbeats ahead of the beat. So even though both of us were together tempo-wise, we were not locking together, and I wasn't having fun. He wasn't used to bass players not charging along, and with a guitarist who we are supporting, he's not playing along to us, so his feel is written in stone. So we started talking about this, and how the material really required being aware of this, more than just knowing the songs and playing them right. Once he began to adapt to how we were a kind of different thing even though still bass/drums and guitar we started gradually finding our pocket, and now I really enjoy playing together and I can relish our fit when we play out.

The bars can all line up, but it's the stuff between them that counts : )

Bass-desires · #9 05-19-2009, 08:32 AM

I experienced it without knowing what it was, but a few times me and the drummer just 'locked' in and it was freaken amazing. I was throwing triplets like nobody's business and the guitarist who has been playing for 30+ years simply said, "Whoa, you guys made me sound good." lol

I dono, getting that rhythm section to really lock in, but have room to play around to make it sound good. Kinda like sticking your hand in your pocket, your in, and you can fiddle around. lol

Illbay · #10 05-19-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass-desires

...the guitarist who has been playing for 30+ years simply said, "Whoa, you guys made me sound good."

That's it!!!

#11 05-19-2009, 08:39 AM

Groovy playing isn't it?

Illbay · #12 05-19-2009, 08:43 AM

John Liebman in his tutorial Funk Bass talks (again, in very ephemeral terms) about "being in the groove" (which I take to be a synonym for "in the pocket") as opposed to "floating over the line."

The latter I take to mean a non-organic, not-really-with-the-beat way to play the same notes.

"groove, don't float" is the mantra.

Go figure.

JKT · #13 05-19-2009, 08:43 AM

I agree it is a state where the R section is locked and playing together.

It is somewhat open to interperetation as to where it sits, how deep, etc. So many variables- tempo, instruments,players,etc.

One thing most would agree on and that is when it is not there!

Illbay · #14 05-19-2009, 08:46 AM

NOW LISTENING TO: "Fools in Love" on Joe Jackson's live album "Afterlife".

The opening to that song, drum 'n' bass, is a perfect example of "in the pocket." Then the bass drops out while the lyrics start.

The bass comes back in, playing "in the pocket," and the song REALLY starts.

Q.E.D.

deaf pea · #15 05-19-2009, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarkerBass

...As a guy who's grown up with rock and into metal and is only recently foraying into the realms of funk and jazz etc. "pocket" playing to me means being really tight but also simple... holding the bass and rhythm... I suppose you could say holding the groove but since most of my playing isn't groove orientating I find this a bit misleading. Is it possibel to play technically hard and "fancy" lines "in the pocket" or does "in the pocket" mean it's powerful and effective but simple stuff?...

you say "most of my playing isn't groove" oriented . . . "As a guy who's grown up with rock and into metal" . . .
Well, I remember (not so very long ago) when ALL of the top rock groups had "groovey", "in-the -pocket" playing . . .

the most obvious example (for ME) is just about anything by Led Zepelin, not so much the acoustic guitar stuff, more like when Bonzo and JPJ are rockin' out . . . YMMV, but there is a looseness (not "tightness") that is the esence of "groove" playing . . . another example is the classic "groove" of the Rolling Stones, Charlie Watts/Bill Wyman era . . . also very "loose" (some people would say "sloppy") . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarkerBass

...Does in the pocket playing exist in rock...?

It definitely CAN . . . and SHOULD!

Illbay · #16 05-19-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

Well, I remember (not so very long ago) when ALL of the top rock groups had "groovey", "in-the -pocket" playing . . .

The minute the bassists let the guitards talk them into "detuning" the E-string so they could follow, this apparently went out the window.

RicPlaya · #17 05-19-2009, 10:05 AM

The Pocket?

I played with a singer one time that was not a musician. We had a drummer that was erratic and hard to play with, we had to chase him around a bit. The singer had a difficult time. We changed drummers, everything seemed to fit better. The non-muso singer said " I dunno what changed, but it's like singing to live Karaoke music, it just all fits and feels better, my vocals fit perfect just like the recording".

JmJ · #18 05-19-2009, 10:06 AM

Rhythmic Integrity.

Vakmere · #19 05-19-2009, 10:10 AM

In the pocket is something I'm always in every time I get a paycheck...Dad can you lend me - honey can I have - car needs gas ---------

adhus · #20 05-19-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spigmu

But I started to see I was playing fairly behind the beat feel-wise, and he was putting the kicks on the mark but the backbeats ahead of the beat. So even though both of us were together tempo-wise, we were not locking together, and I wasn't having fun. He wasn't used to bass players not charging along, and with a guitarist who we are supporting, he's not playing along to us, so his feel is written in stone.

The bars can all line up, but it's the stuff between them that counts : )

Very true..happened to me as well. Now i don't have a right drummer for me and it's really hard to find one.