What gives me the right to do this?

[avenger7326]

Theory question, hopefully I can explain this clear enough.

Ok so I was at a friends house jammin with a guitarist and drummer. My guitarist starts playing a progression in A minor that goes: Amin, G, F, E.

Now I know that Amin is made up of A, C, E; G is G, B, D; etc.
Basically each chord, because they are simply minor and major, are comprised of only 3 notes.

Now just for the fun of it I didn't play a conventional bassline and instead kinda soloed over the chords. Here is what I played for each chord exactly how I played it, I figured tabs would be easiest:

Amin:
G --14-12----12-14-12---------
D---------14----------14-12---
A----------------------------15
E------------------------------
GMaj:
G---------12-10-9--------
D----9-12---------12-10-9
A-10----------------------
E-------------------------
FMaj:
G--------10-9-7-----
D---7-10--------10-7
A-8------------------
E--------------------
EMaj:
G-------9-7-----
D---6-9-----9-6
A-7-------------
E---------------

For Amin I stuck to the A Minor Scale so no problems there.

For G I went up the chord notes to the octave and then wanted to simply run down the G major scale, only problem was the 7th (F#) of the G major scale didn't sound right and had to be flated (F). I believe this is the Dorian mode.

For F I went up the chord notes to the octave and was able to successfully come down the F major scale but could hit the 4th (Bb) of the scale because it sounded off. I think this may be another mode, perhaps Lydian but I don't know.

For E I again went up the chord notes to the octave but again had to flaten the 7th of the scale (D#-->D) I think Dorian mode again,maybe.

I'm only beginning to learn theory and know very little of modes, the guesses I took at what modes I was using I was able to look up at studybass.com, fretboard printer.

Basically I want to know what exactly I was doing. What kind of formula if any was I unconsciously using and what gave me the right to do things like flatten the 7th of a scale to make it into,what I believe, is another mode?

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[bassteban]

What gives you the right? You are the bass player- no one is listening to you.

[snyderz]

I don't consider music a science, but instead an art. Do what you want.

[ChrisBowsman]

Originally Posted by snyderz

Do what you want.

Exactly. If it sounds good, it is.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by avenger7326

Basically I want to know what exactly I was doing. What kind of formula if any was I unconsciously using and what gave me the right to do things like flatten the 7th of a scale to make it into,what I believe, is another mode?

Your examples are all scale notes, none out of scale that I saw except we need to re-visit what you play over the E chord. Notes from the same scale will always sound good with each other.

You mentioned the F# not sounding good with the G scale notes - it should have as G major has a F#. But, when you flatting it you were playing the G Mixolydian mode, i.e. C Ionian.

The Bb is a good note in F major by sharping it to B you would be playing the F Lydian mode, i.e. C Ionian.

What gave you the right -- well by trusting your ear you ended up playing in C.

http://www.looknohands.com/chordhous.../index_rb.html. Pull up the notes for C Ionian, A Aeolian, G Mixolydian and F Lydian. See what you get. All the notes you ended up with fall within the C major scale. That's why they sound good together. C major and Am have the same notes as do G Mixolydian and F Lydian. Trusting your ear pulled it all together.

The notes you play over the E chord, by flatting the D# you pull close to the C scale, however the G# still gets in the way....... should you flat the G# also?

[Marton]

Well, you're in A minor, you should use the A minor notes in the other chords too, thus the B and F not altered. The E major should have the minor 7th, to make the tritone with the G sharp.

[J-B'ass]

Basically I want to know what exactly I was doing. What kind of formula if any was I unconsciously using and what gave me the right to do things like flatten the 7th of a scale to make it into,what I believe, is another mode?

Snyderz is on the money with his opinion that music is art, not science. However, in order to create art we must first put on the scientist hat and understand what our harmonic options are, because only then can we create the most effective and expressive art. So I will oblige your request for a harmonic analysis of your jam.

The chord progression |Am|G|F|E| Suggests a key of A aeolian (natural minor). While this key would normally contain an E minor, E major is a very acceptable and common alteration because it resolves nicely to the A minor. The note doing the resolving is the G#, which is a semitone away from the note A.

Your line over the Am chord is based on the A minor pentatonic scale (A,C,D,E,G,A). There is no major third, so using the fourth doesn't risk any clash. Every tone of both the chord and the scale are either a tone apart, a minor third apart, or a fifth apart. These are all very soft intervals, so you can play any note of the A minor pentatonic scale without fear of it clashing with any note of the Am chord.
The mode you are using would be either the Dorian or the Aeolian. The key implies Aeolian, but since you didn't play the sixth note of the scale, which is the difference between the two modes, the mode you were in was never specified.

Over the G major chord you were using the mixolydian mode. My guess as to the reason why the F note sounded better over this chord than the F# is because the chords overall imply a key of A aeolian, and the presence of an F chord reinforces the general tonality of F natural.
Over the G major you played the fourth, C. If this had been a seventh chord (either dominant or major) then you would need to be more careful of the fourth because of the clash it causes with the function of the third (in a dominant chord), or the tritone it creates with the major seventh (in a major seven chord).

Over the F your lydian guess was spot on. The lydian mode has a sharpened fourth when compared with the ionian mode (normal major). The B note would be a B natural over this chord because of the tonality implied by the chord sequence, your previous note and mode choices, and the note and mode choices of the other musicians (except the drummer :P). On a side note, a sharpened fourth is a safe choice over a major seven chord because it avoids clashing with both the third and the seventh, but you have to make sure that it sounds right in relation to your previous note and mode choices (ie fits in the key your playing in).

Over the E you played the mixolydian mode again. This completely breaks away from the key, which is a good thing, because if it didn't it wouldn't resolve so well back to the Am. The reason the seventh felt like it needed flattening was partly because the note D (the flattened seventh) is a part of the sound of the overall tonality, but also because with the G#, it creates a tritone, which resolves nicely to Am (the G# moves to A, and the D moves to C). This is also how dominant chords in general resolve, although they resolve better to major chords, minor chords work just fine. Playing a major seventh (D#) over the E would have sounded very strange because D# hasn't been implied by any of the previous notes, chords, or modes, and also it doesn't help the dominant function of the E chord, in fact it works against it.

Over all you were playing in a solid A aeolian tonality, soloing using the modes that correspond to the chords played. The E was changed to a dominant for the resolution, and your modal choice reflected this perfectly.

I realise this may be a lot to take in, so please pm me if you have any questions relating to my post. Or just questions generally, I'm happy to help.

[Richard Lindsey]

It's just A minor. All those chords, and all the notes played, fit comfortably within A minor. Minor tonality, as commonly practiced, allows for the use of either a major 7 (here G#) or a minor 7 (G) as necessary. As well as either a major 6 (here F#) or a minor 6 (F), on occasion, and depending on the setting.

It's not necessary, or IMO particularly helpful, to think of yourself as playing in a different mode for every chord in this progression. In fact, it's possibly counterproductive to do so, since what's being played is so clearly in A minor, and thinking of a different mode for every chord can tempt to to think you change keys every time you change chords, which you don't. (You seem to have succumbed to this temptation when you assumed that F# should have been the right choice when playing under a G major chord, simply because F is sharped in the key of G major. You weren't in G major, you were in A minor, so there's no reason to think you "should" have played F#.) Much better IMHO to think of yourself simply as moving harmonically within A minor. Not all progressions fit so neatly within a single key or modality, but this one does, so it makes sense to think of it as simply as possible.

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by avenger7326

Basically I want to know what exactly I was doing. What kind of formula if any was I unconsciously using and what gave me the right to do things like flatten the 7th of a scale to make it into,what I believe, is another mode?

First of all, kudos for having ears good enough to ear what's in & what's out. My ear was pretty weak when I first started playing.

Richard Lindsey and J-B'ass are right. You're in the key of A minor, not in a new key for each chord. Just think of yourself as being in A minor for the duration of the progression.

More than thinking of what note are in the scale, you have to think of what notes are in the chord you're playing over. You're avoiding notes that are adjacent to chord tones a lot and playing what are mostly pentatonic scales over each chord.

Going up an octave and then descending into the minor 7th is pretty common. It's rare to go up an octave and descend into a major 7th. The major 7th is the leading tone to the root, and it naturally leads IN to the root, and resists being the note you come OUT of the root with on your way down.

Look up the bass lines for Night Train by James Brown and Groove Is In The Heart for a couple of classic examples of this concept. (BTW Lady Kier actually manages to outshine Bootsy in that video - well worth the watch, but that outfit may be a bit risque for some, though no more than what Shakira had on on SNL tonight. Man, listening to that song, it's all bass, drums, and vocals.)

Incidentally, the 4th of G is C, which is in the key of A minor. The 4th of F is Bb, which is a not in the key of A minor, but that's no reason it couldn't be pulled off if used as a passing tone between the 5th and 3rd of the chord.

My advice- don't think too hard about what mode you're in, worry more about what chord you're playing over, and if you do think about modes, just remember to root yourself in one place and not change for every new chord that comes along (and learn how to figure out the root of the key you're in). Look up the pentatonic scale (you'll see it's a pretty good match with what you're hearing/playing) and check out the two basslines I told you about.

[aNewRising]

technically theoretically the E chord should be Em or an extended version of Em.. Since in Am the chords go Am bdim C Dm Em F G Am

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by aNewRising

technically theoretically the E chord should be Em or an extended version of Em.. Since in Am the chords go Am bdim C Dm Em F G Am

Technically and theoretically, that's not really true. As I pointed out above, minor tonality allows for the use of the leading tone (G# in this instance). You're thinking of the natural minor scale (aeolian mode), but that scale does not by itself define minor tonality.

if the question were how to harmonize the natural minor scale, you'd be entirely correct. But the question is really more about playing in A minor, which is something different.

[aNewRising]

actually I'm reading off my theory textbook which states that if you were to play a song in A minor, theoretically Em would be a better chord to play than E Major.

[not_jason]

Originally Posted by aNewRising

actually I'm reading off my theory textbook which states that if you were to play a song in A minor, theoretically Em would be a better chord to play than E Major.

Functionally, however, E Major works very well when playing in the key of A minor. It's a move used so frequently and effectively that it hardly counts as atypical. Theory, in my opinion, isn't a set of rules, it's a set of explanations. If E Major is a functional chord when playing in A minor, we must be flexible enough to expand our understanding of A minor and find out why.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by aNewRising

actually I'm reading off my theory textbook which states that if you were to play a song in A minor, theoretically Em would be a better chord to play than E Major.

In general, theory follows practice and explains it; it doesn't determine practice. As not_jason says, the fact is that E major works in A minor. It's not the job of a theory book to say this shouldn't happen, in the face of actual events. It IS happening, so the job of theory is to try to figure out why it does. I suspect your theory book does get into this at some point. If it doesn't, you might want to look at some other theory resources. If facts contradict theory, it's generally not the facts that are wrong, you know what I mean?