What the heck are modes and why are they important?

[honeyiscool]

I should preface this by saying that I've heard all the names, Aeolian, Ionian, Dorian, blah, I do understand what they are, although I have trouble keeping most of them straight.

But what I don't get is what are they useful for? I keep hearing all these people talk about the Dorian mode, for instance, and as I understand, it's basically D-E-F-G-A-B-C. What is so remarkable about that? Isn't it the scale you would naturally play along to any minor 7 chord?

Also, I'm reading about the Phrygian mode and it claims that "La Fiesta" by Chick Corea is a good example of that mode. I know that song by heart. I know all the chords and melodies to that song, I've played along to it countless times (on piano, I can't play it on bass, lolz), and I can definitely solo to it. I still have no clue where the Phrygian appears and why if I knew where that appears in that song, how that would improve my playing.

Is it just a different way of thinking about scales? For me, hearing a chord just seems to make the scale obvious to me, but I mainly think in terms of chords. If I were more into modes, is the idea that I'd come up with the scales and then fit the chord to the scale?

The whole modes thing does intrigue me because it seems that a lot of players do talk about it when they talk about their ventures into music theory and it seems kind of like the membership card into the classroom-trained musicians vs. field-trained musicians like myself. I'm just wondering if there's practical value to be gained by learning and thinking in terms of modes.

[Skitch it!]

In effect they are each scale built from every note of the major scale, they each have a different tonality. Dorian as you stated is the second mode, but one note different to a natural minor scale (the relative minor in the key), it has a raised 6th. Phrygian lends itself to a tonality. I suppose it's shorthand for the relevant scale to chord. Being classically trained I think I see where your coming from, you work in intervallic thinking rather than an applicable mode?

It is all the major scale, but harmonised, all the chords/scales within, they lend themselves to easy to remember patterns too, for a fretboard.

As I mentioned in a previous post, a former partner was classically trained, piano/violin/and played bass too on occasion, thought intervallically, could read exceptionally well, but not great positioning on a fretboard, because it was all intervallic thought, it involved a lot of jumping around, not very fluid.

[faulknersj]

They just offer different phrasing options, especially when improvising. E Dorian works well over the first chord in the Bill Withers tune 'Use Me' for example, and the bass line in the Chic hit 'Good Times' is also E Dorian to A. These approaches just offer different tonalities than a major scale approach.

[SactoBass]

The different modes just have the half steps located in different places in the scale. It just gives the music a different sound.

[honeyiscool]

You're calling it E dorian, but I just call the bass line to "Good Times" being played in the E minor 7, I just think that the scale is just kind of obvious to me since you're playing a scale that bridges an Em7 leads into A7, which I basically think of as an A major scale with the 7th one half-step down. I guess it's not really an A7, because you can clearly hear the F# in the guitar, so I suppose it could be more of an F# minor chord on top of the A on the bass?

I don't know, is there really a language and a philosophy that goes with this? I just thought that all this falls under stuff that you just kind of have to feel, the stuff that you can't easily describe with simple chords and such.

[fearceol]

Here is another thread about modes :

help with modes please :)

[slybass3000]

Modes are important to understand because THEY REPRESENT CHORD FUNCTIONS IN A KEY OR A TONALITY. Which means especially for minor 7 chords for example, that you better know, as a song writer,arranger,bass player or soloist, the difference between a Amin7 in the key of G Major, a Amin7 in the key of F Major or a Amin7 in the key of C Major. They all three have the same notes in the chord: A,C,E and G. No problem if you stick to your arpeggio but you have to know which notes to play to connect them.The best way to understand it, is to play the notes of the relative major scale (I)of the key. This is the essential reason to know the function of chords and associate them with the right mode or the right key and the right major scale which is the Ionian mode. If not, it will not sound right because the bass is playing against the key instead of emphasizing the tonal center which is our first job as the instrument that support the harmony from the ground.

As an example, if the bass player on the Amin7 in the key of G major (Dorian) is playing a Amin7 in the key of F Major instead (Phrygian) with a Bb in it, that note will clash big time especially if someone is playing a B in the chord or in the solo or melody and would create on top of it, the most dissonance interval in music: the minor 9 interval between these two notes which is not favor in general. This is just a simple example of things that can happen if you don't play the right mode under the right chord. By playing the Bb on that chord, you are not defining the harmony and you will create too much undesirable tensions between notes and extensions unless YOU know how to insert all the other chromatic notes in a musical way.

Right now I make my students aware of being able to play all the 12 notes in a scalar motion over a C major. To achieve that you have to know what you are doing melodically and harmonically. This takes time and ears. You cannot just throw any notes like that over any chords and saying that it will be right because it is not.

Hope this helps,


Sly

[Paco the Taco]

This article should help some...

http://blog.fretlight.com/2009/10/14...the-modes.aspx

Think of modes as the feeling, or the mood of a song. Different modes offer different feelings (dark, happy, upbeat, etc). This article also gives examples of different songs to illustrate that point.

I've just begun learning modes, and it's not easy. However, the freedom that it gives to a player is incredible, even when you first start out.

One more site that is a big help for me...

http://jguitar.com/scale?root=A&scal...e&notes=sharps

At the top, just plug in the key and the mode and get to work!

[MalcolmAmos]

What are modes? Moods of the major scale. Why are they important? If you want to produce a mood modes do that if, big if you have everything else that is needed in place at the same time. If you have a vocalist that will be singing the song - vocalists do a great job of setting moods. If you have lyrics do you need a mode?

Probably not, but your solo should/could continue the mood - set by the vocalist - if you use a mode, and if the rest of the band would switch from the chord progression - used for the vocalist - to a modal vamp during your solo - with the modal vamp the mode's mood will be heard. Read that again.

If you want to talk modes and understand what the guys are talking about, information from any forum will just be confusing. Why? Getting bits and pieces of the modal story will keep you running into stone walls. Find a good theory of modes book find an easy chair and read the whole story. This thread has given you a bunch of bits and pieces, all correct, but, none of them have told you the whole story.

Here are my bits and pieces. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...698#post143698 Print all of these answers, find an easy chair and read all of them. There is some good information in this string. Somewhere in all of this lies the answer to your question.

Good luck.

[mambo4]

I'm just wondering if there's practical value to be gained by learning and thinking in terms of modes.

Many of the "old guard" Jazz players pretty firmly espouse "thinking in chords" over "thinking in modes."
As described in your post, you can already come up with something appropriate just by hearing a chord,
so learning modes in detail will likely not yield a practical benefit to your playing.

It may be useful for communicating with those who think/ talk in modes a lot, however.

[honeyiscool]

Yeah, that's the thing for me. I mean, it just seems self-evident that certain chords work on top of other chords in certain settings and certain ones don't, and then the scale I should be playing seems obvious from that exercise.

I have a clip of me playing some solo piano. Does it seem obvious that I'm lacking in scale knowledge because I don't ever think in terms of modes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiXevHkGirs

Of course, I'm hitting lots of wrong notes because I don't practice piano as much as I ought to. I can't do any of this on bass, but that's mainly because my fingers don't have the speed (and my heart doesn't have the desire to make bass into a shredding instrument), my brain still wants to work at that speed.

Just want to know if I'll sound better if I do think in terms of modes.

[MalcolmAmos]

Modes are for people that can not play the tune so they rely upon playing patterns (modes) and calling it music.

Your left hand knows what to do with what is being played by your right hand. You understand how music works. You are beyond modes as something to play. Now - your playing is jumping from one melodic line and one melodic rhythm to another with no real since of continuity.

See if you can keep the same message (mood, theme, story) going for 32 bars.

You have talent, you just need to focus it. This may help. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/browse/...all&homepage=a Pick some topics and study the best ways to use that music theory.

Good luck.

[Groovy Bastard]

I agree with what is posted above, you have a good grasp on harmony and know the sounds that fit the chords, so except for the nomenclature you already know what's going on.

I would like to advise you to work on your time feel, especially on keeping the pulse while playing more syncopated and/or faster stuff. Working with a metronome/drum computer or even better, a real drummer should help. Have fun!

[dvh]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Many of the "old guard" Jazz players pretty firmly espouse "thinking in chords" over "thinking in modes."
As described in your post, you can already come up with something appropriate just by hearing a chord,
so learning modes in detail will likely not yield a practical benefit to your playing.

It may be useful for communicating with those who think/ talk in modes a lot, however.

This.

I went off on the tangent of studying modes rather than chords. Now I'm playing catch up.

"Mode" is simply a label to describe a scale or arpeggio you might already be playing over a given chord without even knowing it. The more useful knowledge is knowing those chord notes and how they fit into the song and lead to the next chord...

[Rusty the Scoob]

I tend to think in layers. How deep I get into the layers depends on how long the chord is held and how much freedom I have to express it harmonically.

First layer - Roots
Second layer - Chords/arpeggios
Third layer - Modes


Once you get deep into extended chords - 9ths, 11ths and 13ths, you're thinking in modes anyway since you have 7 notes represented for each chord. But you don't want to get stuck thinking a 2nd/9th is as important as the 3rd for example, because then you just end up sounding like you're mindlessly playing scales. Even when you're thinking in terms of a full mode, don't forget which notes are the chord tones.


As far as the basics of what a mode is and how to use it, I made this video which may help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGTmodOYDQ

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Rusty the Scoob

I tend to think in layers. How deep I get into the layers depends on how long the chord is held and how much freedom I have to express it harmonically.

First layer - Roots
Second layer - Chords/arpeggios
Third layer - Modes

Yes. You touch on my favorite point about using modes - we need the chord to stick around long enough for the modes' characteristic mood to develop.

Unless the chord (vamp) is sticking around we are left with the first two layers you speak of and there is no reason to bring a mode into that picture.

I'm sure I will be using your analogy and in a few weeks will think of it as one of my original thoughts. LOL so let me thank you now.

[gre107]

Ugggghhh, my head hurts from reading this... too early in the morning.
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions as to what modes are, what they are used for and whether or not you should learn them.

First off, yes you should learn them. Knowledge is power. People that play well are those that play with confidence. They have confidence because they know what they are doing and have prepared themselves for any situation mainly by practicing and working out how and why things work beforehand.

Modes are the alphabet for all of the diatonic chords in a given key. Each mode represents the scale that a chord is built on in that key. Key of C, C Maj7, I chord, C Ioninan scale. Key of C, D min7, II chord, D Dorian scale. Etc... Yes, it really is that simple. The mode of the respective chord provides the mood, flavor, color call it what you will of the chord in the respective key.

Knowing these allow you to:
1) Know all of the notes that are available diatonically to the key you are in. No one can tell me this is not important to know. Remember what I said about confidence? Yes, it's work but it pays off in spades in the long run. You can try to get around having to learn this but your playing, confidence and knowledge will be limited. You'll get frustrated with your playing and in the meantime you could have just learned this from the start and would be done with it.

2) Allows you to play within the chord melodically by either playing within the specific chord/scale or applying another sound, color, emotion whatever over the chord. Eg. Key of C, C Maj7, I chord and playing the D Dorian over it. Think of it this way, most people when they first start playing tend to play the VI mode, "Aeolian", natural minor of the major key over the song. Why? Because it creates a nice mood, color, feeling over the passing chord or chords.

3) Allows you to play/think about applying one static mode over many chords. E.g. Key of C major, II-7, V7, IM7 chord progression. You could play C Ionian over the entire progression, Play the respective modes over the individual chords: D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian. Or, Play the D Dorian over the D and G chords and then play the C Ionian over the C Maj7. The possibilities become almost endless as to what you can do. But you need to know these modes well in order to do this. Once again, remember playing with confidence and for that matter freedom?

4) Allows you to "imply" changes over static chord vamps. This is when things start to get really cool! There are millions of ways to do this and many books that can describe how to go about it better than I can with a limited amount of space.

Now just as a rant. I noticed that some people here suggest to learn/concentrate just on the arpeggios. Arpeggios are also just as important to learn because they are the chord tones of the specific chords being played and will enforce the harmony of the song or melody.

However, I notice that when most players use arpeggios they only know them with one (possibly two) different fingerings and only in one position. Meaning that they have to jump around the neck to play the arpeggios for the respective chords when they change. What happens is they get lost and it sounds choppy or worse. And I'd like to add they only know them in the root position and rarely know them in their inversions. What is happening here is that their knowledge is limited and they play without confidence which in turn sounds crummy.

The solution to this is: To know all of the notes on the neck that apply to that arpeggio. Know how to play the arpeggio starting with the first, second and fourth finger in each position. By doing this you first are able to see all of the chord tones available to that chord and second you are able to play without having to jump around the neck and make clean fluid lines that are not interrupted. Your hand can stay in the same position and move effortlessly to the next chord.

Also, once you have this down you will then also be able to see the modes available to you at the same time. You then are able to play all of the notes of the given chord as well as chord tones of the chord.

Yes, this is work but so what? You want to play with confidence and play whatever is in your head? Well, this is the only way to do it. Prepare first and then have fun playing.

Hope this helps clear some things up?

[Minotauros]

Repost:

major scale modes

Perfectly safe to open and/or save these.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by gre107

1) Know all of the notes that are available diatonically to the key you are in. No one can tell me this is not important to know. Remember what I said about confidence? Yes, it's work but it pays off in spades in the long run. You can try to get around having to learn this but your playing, confidence and knowledge will be limited. You'll get frustrated with your playing and in the meantime you could have just learned this from the start and would be done with it.

Or just know the key (or the key center for those songs that move around). Knowing C Ionian gives me D Dorian et. al. without yet another level of categorization.

Originally Posted by gre107

2) Allows you to play within the chord melodically by either playing within the specific chord/scale or applying another sound, color, emotion whatever over the chord. Eg. Key of C, C Maj7, I chord and playing the D Dorian over it. Think of it this way, most people when they first start playing tend to play the VI mode, "Aeolian", natural minor of the major key over the song. Why? Because it creates a nice mood, color, feeling over the passing chord or chords.

Still going to wind up sounding like C major under that C chord. Same notes, and unless you're really stomping on the D, F, and A, it's going to sound like C.

Originally Posted by gre107

3) Allows you to play/think about applying one static mode over many chords. E.g. Key of C major, II-7, V7, IM7 chord progression. You could play C Ionian over the entire progression, Play the respective modes over the individual chords: D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian. Or, Play the D Dorian over the D and G chords and then play the C Ionian over the C Maj7. The possibilities become almost endless as to what you can do. But you need to know these modes well in order to do this. Once again, remember playing with confidence and for that matter freedom?

And that's the point- anytime you're seeing it as ii7 V7 IM7 (btw, using capital Romans for a minor chord is kind of confusing- I had to read this a couple of times to see that) it's much more useful IME/IMO to think of that section as all in the key of the tonic, and use your C major scale as your pallet. Again, instead of mentally switching gears with each chord change and going for a different mood, we need to see the connections. Our job is to define the harmony and we don't define the connections that make a ii V I work if we constantly put them into different moods.

Originally Posted by gre107

4) Allows you to "imply" changes over static chord vamps. This is when things start to get really cool! There are millions of ways to do this and many books that can describe how to go about it better than I can with a limited amount of space.

The one area where modes are the most direct route to finding the right notes to play.

Originally Posted by gre107

Now just as a rant. I noticed that some people here suggest to learn/concentrate just on the arpeggios. Arpeggios are also just as important to learn because they are the chord tones of the specific chords being played and will enforce the harmony of the song or melody.

Well, I'd say more important, but they gotta be taught correctly, which is your point below...

Originally Posted by gre107

However, I notice that when most players use arpeggios they only know them with one (possibly two) different fingerings and only in one position. Meaning that they have to jump around the neck to play the arpeggios for the respective chords when they change. What happens is they get lost and it sounds choppy or worse. And I'd like to add they only know them in the root position and rarely know them in their inversions. What is happening here is that their knowledge is limited and they play without confidence which in turn sounds crummy.

Yep, scales, arpeggios, modes, etc. are a construct upon which we build music. That means they're not going to be used only in root-to-root fashion. It comes to what one means when they say they "know" a scale or an arpeggio. If all you know about an Amin7 arpeggio is that how to play it from A to A starting with your first finger on the E string, you don't know squat. And that's too often what people mean when they say they "know" something. Knowing an Amin7 arpeggio means you know that it's A C E G, you can find those notes anywhere on the neck with whatever fingers are available, you know how it lies in the key of C as the vi, in G as the ii, in F as the iii, and most importantly you know how it SOUNDS. Now the thing is, I don't think I've seen anyone fostering an idea that only knowing arpeggios from root-to-root is going to help you play.

Originally Posted by gre107

The solution to this is: To know all of the notes on the neck that apply to that arpeggio. Know how to play the arpeggio starting with the first, second and fourth finger in each position. By doing this you first are able to see all of the chord tones available to that chord and second you are able to play without having to jump around the neck and make clean fluid lines that are not interrupted. Your hand can stay in the same position and move effortlessly to the next chord.

Also, once you have this down you will then also be able to see the modes available to you at the same time. You then are able to play all of the notes of the given chord as well as chord tones of the chord.

Well, that last paragraph is the crux of this. After learning arpeggios, I've found modes to be even less useful as a method of organizing knowledge. If you "see" and understand ii V I as DFAC then GBDF then CEGB, and you grok the way they lie on the neck, then you see the C major scale as a pallet of tones available all over the neck. And you see the notes of the individual chords as your target tones, but not in any way as limitations to the other notes.

Originally Posted by gre107

Yes, this is work but so what? You want to play with confidence and play whatever is in your head? Well, this is the only way to do it. Prepare first and then have fun playing.

EXACTLY- I love this paragraph! Thanks for espousing it so succinctly! Things are only worth what we're willing to pay to get them. Learners need to ask themselves if playing music worth the work of learning to do it well, or are you satisfied with "Quick 'n' Easy Bass Secrets of the Stars" kind of crap?

[gre107]

Originally Posted by JTE

Or just know the key (or the key center for those songs that move around). Knowing C Ionian gives me D Dorian et. al. without yet another level of categorization.

I understand what you are saying here but I'm thinking more in a phrasing point of view. Playing the tensions over the chord. Implying a minor etc... sound.

Originally Posted by JTE

Still going to wind up sounding like C major under that C chord. Same notes, and unless you're really stomping on the D, F, and A, it's going to sound like C.

And I agree that it will unless my phrasing is centered around these notes where I am creating statements and resolutions from/with these. Starting a phrase on D and resolving it to the tonic (D) or whatever choice I make will give it that minor (in this case sound). Depending on what note I'm centering my phrase on dictates how my use of the other notes are handled.

Originally Posted by JTE

(btw, using capital Romans for a minor chord is kind of confusing- I had to read this a couple of times to see that)

Yeah, I know... force of habit.... sorry.

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, that last paragraph is the crux of this. After learning arpeggios, I've found modes to be even less useful as a method of organizing knowledge. If you "see" and understand ii V I as DFAC then GBDF then CEGB, and you grok the way they lie on the neck, then you see the C major scale as a pallet of tones available all over the neck. And you see the notes of the individual chords as your target tones, but not in any way as limitations to the other notes.

Once again, I look at this from a soloing/melodic point of view. The modes here are useful for phrasing consisting of linear/intervalic sequences/snippets, approach tones encapsulation patterns etc... But I completely agree/understand where you are coming from when you are talking about an organization method. For me personally this is just how I see neck "light up" in my head.

Originally Posted by JTE

EXACTLY- I love this paragraph! Thanks for espousing it so succinctly! Things are only worth what we're willing to pay to get them. Learners need to ask themselves if playing music worth the work of learning to do it well, or are you satisfied with "Quick 'n' Easy Bass Secrets of the Stars" kind of crap?

Thanks! And very well put yourself! I liked the "Bass Secrets of the Stars" "between the lines" statement!

All the best!