what i dont understand about modes

[varunkapahi]

ok so now i know in the key of C major all the natural notes played from C to C is C Ionian and all the notes played from D to D is D dorian

so here is the question, now if i played phrase.. say it is made out of the notes C,A,B,E all quater notes, what mode would that be?
i just mean to ask if i played any lick made out of natural notes how do i know what mode i played or how to play some specific mode.

say on the piano; if played only the white keys in whatever order, i'd be playing in the key of C but what lick could belong to what mode? how do i know?

this doesnt make any sense like always

edit: please keep the answers simple enough for me to understand!

[doot doot doot]

The notes C, A, B, and E could belong to any mode. What matters is where you resolve and what you emphasize metrically. If you're resolving to D but only playing the white keys that would generally be considered Dorian.

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by doot doot doot

The notes C, A, B, and E could belong to any mode. What matters is where you resolve and what you emphasize metrically. If you're resolving to D but only playing the white keys that would generally be considered Dorian.

what is "resolving" ?

[varunkapahi]

[chondro776]

This should all just be prefaced by the statement:
"This is how I look at modes/scales"

I think examples may be the best way to help.

Example:
Jamming on a song in C, but I want a lick around the 1st fret (F as a root).

I think to myself, what notes are we playing that are NOT in F major.

The 4th degree would be different (B vs. Bb) (sharp in this case). By knowing your modes, you would know that the only difference in F Ionian (major) and F Lydian is that the Lydian mode would have a sharp 4. So I jam around an F Lydian 'box'.

It is still a C major lick (in my eyes/ears), but the modes allow me a quick jump on different positions. Some would likely disagree and say that you are emphasizing F notes, vs. C notes. But I don't look at it that way.
There are 7 notes in a scale, I don't necessarily want all my licks to revolve around the root.

The other way I look at modes is to add flavor (in a rock setting).

Example:
Jamming on a I-V in C major and the geetarist is only playing power chords. So actually the only notes being played are C, G, and D (1, 2, and 5 scale degrees).

So with this, I could use any C mode that has natural 2's and 5's. C Ionian, C dorian, can't use phyrigian b/c of the flat 2, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, C Aeolian, and can't use Locrian b/c of the flat 2 and flat 5.

In this type of context, the 'key' is really not established well (the guitarist is only supplying 3 of the 7 notes). Hence, you can use the various modes (around a given root) to add unique flavor.

For example, given the above I-V power chord tune, if I wanted it to sound bluesy or rock & roll, I would use C mixolydian or maybe C aeolian.

If I wanted an exotic/spanish vibe, I would go with C Mixolydian.

In summation, I think of modes in two applications. The first is as different fingerings/positions/inversions of a given key.

(C ionian is the same as D dorian, etc.)

The other application would be using a 'wrong' mode for the key, or when using a mode in an incomplete key tune.

Hope this helps, modes were hard for me to get my head wrapped around for ever, then one day it just clicked.

Keep in mind, all of this is just human modeling so we can understand/talk about mechanical energy of different frequencies and sound cool in front of the chicks-

All that matters in the end is the sound/tune.

[chondro776]

Oh, and resolving is just how you end a lick/song/whatever.
Typically, you would end on the root.

A lot of times, you want to build a high level of tension (sometimes by playing 'wrong' notes) and then resolve it to the root.

There are exceptions, if I am not mistaken the very final chord of Zepplin's "Babe I am going to Leave You" is not the root, but it has been a while since I picked up a geetar, so I can't remember for sure (It is also the coolest chord ever played by any person ever).

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by chondro776

Oh, and resolving is just how you end a lick/song/whatever.
Typically, you would end on the root.

A lot of times, you want to build a high level of tension (sometimes by playing 'wrong' notes) and then resolve it to the root.

There are exceptions, if I am not mistaken the very final chord of Zepplin's "Babe I am going to Leave You" is not the root, but it has been a while since I picked up a geetar, so I can't remember for sure (It is also the coolest chord ever played by any person ever).

i understand. but what am wondering is HOW one plays a mode? by sticking to the box shape? thats redundant! and even if i stick to the box shape i could be playing another mode because its all the same notes in different orders no?
if i have to resolve or end the phrase on some root then how do i play really different phrases without them sounding similar but sticking to the same mode?

[varunkapahi]

bump before bed time, please post some replies

[anonymous02282011]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

i understand. but what am wondering is HOW one plays a mode? by sticking to the box shape? thats redundant! and even if i stick to the box shape i could be playing another mode because its all the same notes in different orders no?
if i have to resolve or end the phrase on some root then how do i play really different phrases without them sounding similar but sticking to the same mode?

Hello my friend,

It sounds like you know how to play in modes already. You are correct in your thinking. As a soloist, you don't need to resolve to the root at the end of every phrase to define the mode.

What defines the mode you are in is the root note in the bass and what's being played on the comping instrument.

So, as a bass player, when a group wants to jam in B locrian or whatever, construct a bass line centered around the pitch 'B' and use the appropriate notes. The overall sound of the group will convey the mode.

Think of each mode as the same collection of notes, but coloured in different ways. As an example, listen to Miles Davis' recording 'Kind of Blue', the first track, called 'So What'. The first 16 bars of the tune are in D dorian. Count these measures as you listen to the clour / mood here. The following 8 measure move up to Eb dorian. Do you hear that shift in colour or mood? The last 8 measures of the form go back to D dorian. Did you hear that shift too?

If you've followed your way through those 32 measures, you can follow through a full 'chorus' of the tune. These 'choruses' repeat in the 32 measure cycle described.

Please ask more questions if you have them.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by chondro776

Example:
Jamming on a song in C, but I want a lick around the 1st fret (F as a root).

I think to myself, what notes are we playing that are NOT in F major.

The 4th degree would be different (B vs. Bb) (sharp in this case). By knowing your modes, you would know that the only difference in F Ionian (major) and F Lydian is that the Lydian mode would have a sharp 4. So I jam around an F Lydian 'box'.

It is still a C major lick (in my eyes/ears), but the modes allow me a quick jump on different positions. Some would likely disagree and say that you are emphasizing F notes, vs. C notes. But I don't look at it that way.
There are 7 notes in a scale, I don't necessarily want all my licks to revolve around the root.

Understood that opinions and perspectives vary. Still, this seems to me a classic example of the kind if situation where modes give no added value at all. If you know you're in C, you already know what sharps and flats (if any) there are, and you don't need to bring in modes at all. To me, bringing in modes to explain what's really only harmonic motion within a single key (or harmonic space) doesn't clarify or simplify anything, it just makes it more complicated without adding any explanatory power. (It could even be in a sense misleading.) I'm an Occam's razor kinda guy. Just because you're playing off an F note in the key of C, that doesn't mean you're in some kind of F mode. The concept of an overarching key--C in this example--allows for different notes to be played without changing the key; in fact, you could say that it actually demands such harmonic motion, because it's generally harmonic movement of particular types that creates the sensation of a key in the first place.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by adbass

What defines the mode you are in is the root note in the bass and what's being played on the comping instrument.

I would say it's not the root note in the bass but, rather, the resting note of the harmonic space that you're working in. You can play different chords (and thus different root notes) and still be operating within a single mode. You see this with some frequency, for example, in Celtic music.

[anonymous02282011]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I would say it's not the root note in the bass but, rather, the resting note of the harmonic space that you're working in. You can play different chords (and thus different root notes) and still be operating within a single mode. You see this with some frequency, for example, in Celtic music.

Fair enough. I just didn't want to obfuscate the matter any further.

Understanding modes can be quite confusing. Many of my students learn them quite easily, but always have questions as to their application and utility. I should say that they have an educational utility in that they help making the connection from learning scales to learning chord structures and how those are derived, IMO IME YMMV etc etc etc

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

i understand. but what am wondering is HOW one plays a mode?

Really, what defines whether you're "playing IN a mode" (as adbass rightly puts it--as opposed to just "playing a mode") is two things: (1) the set of notes that you're making use of and (2) the note that is the resting frequency, that is, the place where the tune seems to want to resolve. These are the same two things that define whether you're playing in a "regular" key.

For example, when you say you're playing in C major, you're saying not one thing but two things. (1) The set of notes that's "natural" (or diatonic) for this harmonic space consists of C D E F G A B, AND (2) the note on which the harmony comes to rest is C. You don't have a key of C major, really, unless you have BOTH those things.

When you say you're playing in D dorian, you are indeed using the same set of notes (C D E F G A B), but note that variable (2) is different--the resting note is not C any more, it's D. Now, because you've shifted the resting point, the harmonic landscape looks different, just as if you took a photo of a valley from the top of one hill and then moved to the top of a hill 5 miles away and took another photo of the same valley. All the other notes in your palette have a different relationship to D than they had to C, so the whole flavor of the harmonic space is now different. A G doesn't sound, or work, quite the same way in D dorian that it did in C major.

Note that to get this kind of shift in the harmonic landscape, it's not sufficient just to start a riff on a D or E or whatever. You have to establish it through melodic and/or harmonic activity. For example, many songs start with a chord that is not the tonic chord of the key, and you only get the sense of key once a few chords have gone by and the harmony has "settled."

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by adbass

Fair enough. I just didn't want to obfuscate the matter any further.

Understood! Unfortunately, I often succumb to the opposite tendency--to try to explain things too much, and thereby risk further obfuscation.

[anonymous02282011]

[JTE]

It all depends on context! Just to say I'm playing C, A, B, E without a context doesn't tell us anything. It could be any mode derived from the C major scale, or any derived from the G major scale.

I often see modes presented on TB and other places as a panacea for unlocking music, but the way they're presented and explained just adds unneccasary confusion. First, if you know something is in the key of C, there's no reason to think of it as any modes. The common example of "play D Dorian, then G Mixolydian, then C Ionian over a Dmin, G7 C progression" is a perfect example. Those three chords define the key center of C. They all function together in C. There's no reason to think of them as separate scales nor separate entities. To go further, thinking of them as three separate modes utterly obscures the fact that they're all the same key.

If you really want to "learn" modes, then make sure you know the chords and arpeggios of a harmonized major scale first. Then learn the modes all in C. That means instead of playing a C scale from F to F and thinkning you know F Lydian, learn C Lydian. Learn C Ionian, C Dorian, C Lydian, etc. Learn what makes Lydain SOUND different from C Mixolydian, etc. That'll help you get to the heart of modes.

But don't just learn them as scales. Learn the chords in the major scale and you'll see how modes might help, and you'll seee where they're less useful.

jte

[chondro776]

Richard- I hear ya, I just look at D dorian as still being C, just revolving around a D. At the end of the day, the note selection comes from the ether, but the available notes come from the key sig.

It is funny...I don't see any added value of the modes other than what I explained. But that is no doubt my ignorance...

So, call it whatever mode you want....it is still C maj to me...just with a different center.
I use them more often as 'inversions' more than as a different scale.

Again...this is in a simple music environment, not a Jazz environment. And I am by no means 'Joe Theory'.

Edit to add: In your statement about already knowing the sharps/flats in a key....

I have a decent grasp on the fretboard, circle of 5ths, modes, etc...but I can't think about what note name I want to play nearly as fast as I can think about what type of finger movement/sound I am looking for.

I know what a phrygian lick 'A' sounds/ feels like. I want to play it here. We are playing in 'x' key...so I play it in 'Y' position. I can do that a hellvua lot quicker than I can think of the note sequence itself that I want to play...


(lol...that likely made no sense).

[doot doot doot]

I find it easiest and most useful to think of modes as completely different scales. D Dorian may have the same notes as C major, but the interval spacing between scale degrees is shifted, giving it a different sound.

For example, Dorian has a flatted third and flatted seventh relative to the major scale. The note names are still all natural notes (D E F G A B C), but how they relate to the root is different.

Here's the text file I used to memorize modes. Obviously the little notes underneath are by no means hard and fast rules but I found them useful to help solidify them in my mind.

MODES

Ionian (Major)
I II III IV V VI VII I

Dorian
I II iii IV V VI vii I
jazzy, works over m or m7 chords

Phrygian
I ii iii IV V vi vii I
metal sound, works over minor (same as minor with b2)

Lydian
I II III #IV V VI VII I
same as major, sharped fourth. Works over maj or maj7 chords

Mixolydian
I II III IV V VI vii I
pure awesome. works over 7 chords

Aeolian (Minor)
I II iii IV V vi vii I
works over m and m7 chords, also works over some major and 7 chords

Locrian
I ii iii IV v vi vii I
dark, dissonant. m7b5 chords only pretty much

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Really, what defines whether you're "playing IN a mode" (as adbass rightly puts it--as opposed to just "playing a mode") is two things: (1) the set of notes that you're making use of and (2) the note that is the resting frequency, that is, the place where the tune seems to want to resolve. These are the same two things that define whether you're playing in a "regular" key.

For example, when you say you're playing in C major, you're saying not one thing but two things. (1) The set of notes that's "natural" (or diatonic) for this harmonic space consists of C D E F G A B, AND (2) the note on which the harmony comes to rest is C. You don't have a key of C major, really, unless you have BOTH those things.

When you say you're playing in D dorian, you are indeed using the same set of notes (C D E F G A B), but note that variable (2) is different--the resting note is not C any more, it's D. Now, because you've shifted the resting point, the harmonic landscape looks different, just as if you took a photo of a valley from the top of one hill and then moved to the top of a hill 5 miles away and took another photo of the same valley. All the other notes in your palette have a different relationship to D than they had to C, so the whole flavor of the harmonic space is now different. A G doesn't sound, or work, quite the same way in D dorian that it did in C major.

Note that to get this kind of shift in the harmonic landscape, it's not sufficient just to start a riff on a D or E or whatever. You have to establish it through melodic and/or harmonic activity. For example, many songs start with a chord that is not the tonic chord of the key, and you only get the sense of key once a few chords have gone by and the harmony has "settled."

THATS the part i never knew before!
so what i now understand is its not just the notes you are playing, its the notes you are playing over the specific resting frequency! so once i acknowledge a tonal center its a different story.

ok now i have other questions about utility of modes but some simple ones are:

can one only play in the ionian mode over a major chord and only the mixolidian mode over the dominant 7th chord? how does that work?
situation: say if the guitar player is strumming Dm now if i want to think modes in my solo over it, i play D Dorian? or D aeolian? actually what ALL modes i can play while the chord is strumming?
how do i stay in the key?
Dm would mean the key is Bmajor right?

[anonymous02282011]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

can one only play in the ionian mode over a major chord and only the mixolidian mode over the dominant 7th chord? how does that work?

No. You can use any note you choose to create and resolve dissonance over a given chord. Remember, a chord is not a mode per se. Your ears are your little friends. Use them, nurture them.

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

situation: say if the guitar player is strumming Dm now if i want to think modes in my solo over it, i play D Dorian? or D aeolian? actually what ALL modes i can play while the chord is strumming?

Chords are different than modes. You are free to use any of the notes you like when soloing; a good accompanist will listen to your note choices and incorporate them in his/her comping. Unless the ensemble has agreed to playing in a given mode, think of playing of chords and modes differently. Again, a modal piece will use only specific notes of that mode, whereas playing over chords opens up the use of all 12 pitches.

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

how do i stay in the key?
Dm would mean the key is Bmajor right?

Well, what's the key signature? Dmin in no way indicates B major (although you could have a Dminor chord in a song in the key of B major and vice versa). Perhaps you miss-typed and meant to say C major? Still, D minor is not indicative of a specific key. Dminor could be C major, F major, Bb major, etc.

I'm glad some of this is making sense to you.