What is this Jazz composition technique called?

[AlphaMale]

Basically there will be a chord such as CMaj7 and then they raise the root one half step(or just get rid of the C, depending how you think about it) and the chord becomes C diminished; or from C to E minor (E-/B) by lowering the C.

[EADG mx]

If you mean this:

C E G B
C# E G B

that's not Cdim, that would be C#m7b5.


C to Em (or Em/B) works and is really common. Don't know if there's a specific name for it, though.

Also neither of these are exclusive to jazz music.

[AlphaMale]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

If you mean this:

C E G B
C# E G B

that's not Cdim, that would be C#m7b5.


C to Em (or Em/B) works and is really common. Don't know if there's a specific name for it, though.

Also neither of these are exclusive to jazz music.

Oops, yeah I meant to say half diminished.

But yeah basically when the wrote ascends or descends. Me and my friends were talking about it in class and we wanted to know what it was called.

[mambo4]

If you think about it as
Cmaj7 > Dbm7b5

It might qualify as a flat five substitution for

Cmaj7>G7

[AlphaMale]

Originally Posted by mambo4

If you think about it as
Cmaj7 > Dbm7b5

It might qualify as a flat five substitution for

Cmaj7>G7

Tritone substitution sounds about right. Thats what my friend was saying but I wasn't so sure. But yeah I think that is what it is. Thanks.

[DocBop]

That would be C mi7b5 and tritone sub's are typically dominant chords and would move down to the C afterwards. Now if you were moving upward then a diminish chord would be used like the classic Freddie Green rhythm sound from Count Basie. That would be using a diminished as a passing chord and go to the Dmi7 next. To really get a good idea of how a chord is being used you want to look where it came from and where its going to.

[AlphaMale]

Well the first example I could think of would be
All the Things you are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Things_You_Are

Abmaj7 to A half diminished



My friends teacher said that's tritone substitution, but I didn't see what was being substituted.

Then I was playing Manha De Carnaval (Black Orpheus in the Real book)

And I noticed the same thing Cmaj7 to C# half diminished

[DocBop]

Look to the dominant chords as a guide. I look at that and see...

VI II V I IV in Eb to II V in Gmi to G major.

So you're in 3 keys in that section. Others will probably have other ways to look at it. That's mine.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Look to the dominant chords as a guide. I look at that and see...

VI II V I IV in Eb to II V in Gmi to G major.

So you're in 3 keys in that section. Others will probably have other ways to look at it. That's mine.

Yeah that is cool to look at it this way but I like to see the last ii-v-i as an hybrid version where it doesn't resolve where it is suppose to.
The Amin7(b5) here is a perfect example for using the sixth mode of C melodic minor scale also known as the locrian #2. The B introduce in that scale brings you right to the third of GMaj.

Sylvain

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by AlphaMale

Basically there will be a chord such as CMaj7 and then they raise the root one half step(or just get rid of the C, depending how you think about it) and the chord becomes C diminished; or from C to E minor (E-/B) by lowering the C.

Actually,to answer your original post,now that I know you are talking about ATTYA, I would say that the melody is based on the third of each chord. And it is moving in keys that are based mainly on the major 7 arpeggio of the key ( ab-c-eb and g) except for the last turnaround of the bridge. It is something I realize not long ago in fact !

[HaVIC5]

Whoa, whoa, what's this about tritone substitution? The A-7(b5) here definitely is NOT a substitute dominant, and that is the only case where tritone substitution has any relevance. There is, in fact, no relationship whatsoever with the key of Eb here, and so you can't even analyze in terms of roman numerals for that key. It's just a smooth way of modulating to an unrelated key signature. The guide tones of both the Abmaj7 and the A-7(b5) are the same, so a potentially jarring direct chromatic mediant modulation from Eb to G major is smoothed out a little bit. This is a modulation, not a chord progression within one key in this instance. No tritone substitution of a m7(b5) (??!) or any of that ridiculousness.

However, in the Black Orpheus example you mentioned, there is a definite chord progression within one key, and it's different than going up to a m7(b5). The C# is fully diminished in that case, and has what's called diminished function. Diminished chords with diminished function resolve by a half step either up or down, usually to a diatonic chord. The can ascend to the next chord, like Cmaj7 - C#dim7 - Dm7 in Black Orpheus, or they can descend in some circumstances, like if it was Em7 - Ebdim7 - Dm7. If they ascend, the diminished chord represents an upper structure of the secondary dominant a major third below. In other words, the notes of C#dim7, C# E G Bb, are the top four notes of an A7(b9) (A C# E G Bb), which is the V/II, which is where the C#dim7 is expected to resolve.

These are two very different circumstances, so I hope this was clear.

[EADG mx]

Tritone substitution only works on dominant 7 chords.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

Tritone substitution only works on dominant 7 chords.

Actually not. The typical use of Tri-Tone sub is on dominants and many times on a single chord. But tri-tone subs are sometimes used on a series of chords resolving back on the final chord. It works because peoples ears recognize symmetry of the altered roots and accept it. Its a tool people reharmonizing tunes use.

The typical use of tri-tone sub works because the 3rd and 7th of both chords are the same two notes. Tri-tone sub on a series of chords work because the symmetry of the roots.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Actually not. The typical use of Tri-Tone sub is on dominants and many times on a single chord. But tri-tone subs are sometimes used on a series of chords resolving back on the final chord. It works because peoples ears recognize symmetry of the altered roots and accept it. Its a tool people reharmonizing tunes use.

The typical use of tri-tone sub works because the 3rd and 7th of both chords are the same two notes. Tri-tone sub on a series of chords work because the symmetry of the roots.

I'd like to see an example of what you consider this sort of alternative tritone substitution, because I don't really think that's whats going on, but something else entirely. The entire reason for a tritone substutition is the 3rd/7th equivalance, otherwise, substituting a chord for the same chord a tritone down has no more relevance than substituting it for a chord a major third down or a half step down or any other arbitrary interval.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I'd like to see an example of what you consider this sort of alternative tritone substitution, because I don't really think that's whats going on, but something else entirely. The entire reason for a tritone substutition is the 3rd/7th equivalance, otherwise, substituting a chord for the same chord a tritone down has no more relevance than substituting it for a chord a major third down or a half step down or any other arbitrary interval.

Take any turnaround and apply it like a III VI II V
So E-7, A-7, D-7, G7
Tri-tone sub's
Bb-7, Eb-7, Ab-7, G7

Since you're leaving the V G7 alone it resolves fine, but if could be a tri-tone to if going CMa7. It all just going up and cycling back something done all the time in comping or arranging. Hang any label you want on it, but its just cycling back to a chord CoF's stuff.

[slybass3000]

The other possibility to see a sub as a tritone would be in a case where instead of resolving on the I chord let say C Maj7 you would use a sequence of ii-v starting on the b5 like this: F#min7(b5)-B7-Em7-A7-Dm7-G7 to finally C.

Hope this helps,

Sylvain

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Take any turnaround and apply it like a III VI II V
So E-7, A-7, D-7, G7
Tri-tone sub's
Bb-7, Eb-7, Ab-7, G7

Since you're leaving the V G7 alone it resolves fine, but if could be a tri-tone to if going CMa7. It all just going up and cycling back something done all the time in comping or arranging. Hang any label you want on it, but its just cycling back to a chord CoF's stuff.

Constant structure constant cycle 5 (circle of fifths) is what the Schillinger/Berklee crowd would call that. Yes, superficially it looks like a "tritone substitution", but that's not how its going to sound at all. Tritone subs are a functional pattern that must have hearable function to a specific key center. For example, no matter where you are in the pattern, you should be able to sing back "do", or the tonic, no problem. The unstable nature of the dominant chord means that even though it has neither a diatonic root nor function to the key, you're not going to confuse it for a new tonic, or loose the sense of the original tonic. Once you get into patterning more stable structures, like minor and major 7 chords, around the circle of fifths, you're getting into non-functional harmony. These structures only relate to each other by their parallelisms and the pattern of root motion, not to a specific key center. Only when you get to a G7 presumably going back to a C does the ear regain a sense of tonality.

Now, the process to arrive at this constant structure pattern might be a "tritone substitution", but that's not actually how you'll hear the progression. When you play a tritone sub, you think "oh, this is a dominant or secondary dominant sound in the key we're in." That's definitely not the case with patterns such as this.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

The other possibility to see a sub as a tritone would be in a case where instead of resolving on the I chord let say C Maj7 you would use a sequence of ii-v starting on the b5 like this: F#min7(b5)-B7-Em7-A7-Dm7-G7 to finally C.

Hope this helps,

Sylvain

Just because a chord is a tritone away doesn't mean it has the same function as the chord it's substituting. In the key of C, you'd raise a lot of eyebrows if you substituted an F chord with a B-7(b5). I'll say it again, there is no reason for tritone substitution on any chord besides the dominant, any more than there is major 3rd substitution or any other arbitrary interval. There is nothing magical about the tritone that lets you sub any chord for a chord a tritone away.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Just because a chord is a tritone away doesn't mean it has the same function as the chord it's substituting. In the key of C, you'd raise a lot of eyebrows if you substituted an F chord with a B-7(b5). I'll say it again, there is no reason for tritone substitution on any chord besides the dominant, any more than there is major 3rd substitution or any other arbitrary interval. There is nothing magical about the tritone that lets you sub any chord for a chord a tritone away.

This is call REHARMONIZATION which is use in composition, arranging, comping and Jazz soloing to name a few use that comes to mind right now. It is exactly what happens in the original question. The Eb note in the melody of ATTYA before the bridge is been harmonize with the b5 of the Amin7(b5) that resolve to the third of GMaj.

And to continue on the dominant tritone sub I would like to add that it is important to know that this IS a reharmonization process which should be use carefully because let say we have a G in the melody on a G7 going to a C chord the use of the tritone is great because the melody becomes a #11 instead of a tonic. The best use of a tritone sub is to make the melody becomes a better function or color in relationship with the original chord. And one of the best use of the tritone sub should fit the Lydiant dominant chord as a X13(#11) seen commonly as bii7.

Sylvain

[HaVIC5]

This is call REHARMONIZATION which is use in composition, arranging, comping and Jazz soloing to name a few use that comes to mind right now. It is exactly what happens in the original question. The Eb note in the melody of ATTYA before the bridge is been harmonize with the b5 of the Amin7(b5) that resolve to the third of GMaj.

How is this a reharmonization of ATTYA, when these are the original chord changes? Perhaps you are confused on the definition of reharmonization. The Eb is a note which is used as a pivot to an unrelated key.