What modes to use?

[steve66]

Originally Posted by Chili

yeah i understand that there all contain the same notes, so is there any model choices when playing in A that dont belong to the same key centre.

I Think I know what you are asking. hopefully I can answer.

Lets say you are playing in A Major, and you want to solo over that chord, You can probably get away the notes that make up A Lydian Mode. Still major sound quality but with a sharp 4th.

A Ionian is A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G#
A Lydian is A, B,C#, D#,E, F#, G#, A - (witch is actually in the Key of E major.

[chicagodoubler]

OK

Mutediety and others have talked about key signature, and the locrian debate, etc...

The quality of the 3rd establishes the key center.

Let's say we're playing a modal jam.

Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian, Locrian all have b3. If the tonic is A, the key signature will have no sharps or flats- relative major, C. (A minor, of course.)

Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian M3, will have the key of their root.

The remaining accidentals will be dealt with accordingly.

If you are playing F lydian, the key will NEVER be C major, even though it might be more convenient to use C. The signature will have one flat, which of course will have to be treated with an accidental every time the b natural comes up.

Regarding using lydian in the place of a major scale- YES YES YES! Mature improvisers use this sound all the time. Also try the third mode of melodic minor- lydian #5. A PG-13 sound, but gee it sure raises eyebrows when you use it right. The rated R version, which Matthew Garrison loves, is the "gap scale" aka augmented. Check it out- c d# e g ab b. Scares the dogs down the street. Those three options give you a world of fun for M7 sounds, and of course, when you play the major scale for an idea, it will sound refreshingly inside...

The whole point of learning these other scales is to give yourself options. As a beautiful woman told me years ago, "Jazz is about freedom, baby." After you have assimilated these sounds and done years of gigging and transcription, eventually the concept just melts away, and you can play whatever you hear or feel. To get to that point requires alot of hard work, but the end result is one of the most amazing feelings in the world.

[funkalicious101]

Okay, I am starting to understand how modes relate to chords and stuff like that.

But I have to admit..... Jazz confuses the hell out of me. Whats this key change every bar non-sense?!??!

[dvh]

Originally Posted by funkalicious101

Okay, I am starting to understand how modes relate to chords and stuff like that.

But I have to admit..... Jazz confuses the hell out of me. Whats this key change every bar non-sense?!??!

+1 on that. Just when I think I'm beginning to understand another curve gets thrown. I think (hope?) it's like two steps forward one step back but it sure is a slow learning process for me.

Key change every bar: this can be said because every mode can be viewed as a part of different keys depending on how one "sees" it? That is, since the same notes can be part of many different modes the context (and hence, key) is determined by the player's mind?

Am I getting this right?

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by dvh

Key change every bar: this can be said because every mode can be viewed as a part of different keys depending on how one "sees" it? That is, since the same notes can be part of many different modes the context (and hence, key) is determined by the player's mind?

Am I getting this right?

It's just the way many songs were written, Standards tend to have great melodies and multiple key changes. If you study the histroy of Jazz improv and Bebop movement I guess the second big milestone in Jazz improv. They were tired of the laid back tunes and solo and also want challenge. They kicked up the tempo add hipper chord changes. Jams were big then and the hot players started coming up with killer tunes that took really hot player to handle.

Just like any style of music you start with simple tunes and as you build your skills you move to tougher tunes. Common sequence is start Blues, Modal tunes, then work on key center approach, then chord/scale approach. To get all that internalized so you don't have to consciously think of it, you hear what you want to do and do it. Sounds simple, but a long process.

This is why you need to learn theory and not just chords and common scale choices. You need to learn to analyze songs to see where key centers are so you have a choice of chord/scale approach or key centers. Sometimes you need key centers to choose more correct scales/modes. Like most on the tune All the Things You Are see that first Fmi7 ,Bbmi7, Eb7, AbMa7, DbMa7, G7, CMa7, CMa7.

Many look quickly and use default scale choices Mi7=Dorian, Ma7=Lydian, 7th=Lydian b7. That works and can come up with a good solo using the defaults. But analyze it the Fmi is VI chord and the using the b6 of Aeolian is "correct" scale. It is going to the II chord Bbmi7 and Dorian is right mode. Going from the Aeolian to Dorian sound sounds cool with changing minor sounds. Now me I like chromatic movement I would use the tritone sub for the Eb7 and make that a A7. So I get Bbmi7-A7-AbMa7. The AbMa7 is a I chord so I would stick with Lydian default because it take the Avoid note 4 and sharps it. The next chord is DbMa7 that is a real IV chord so Lydian is right mode. Next chord is G7 are real functioning V chord so lots of choices. To me its a pretty song so don't want to go too outside unless doing many choruses so I use my tritone sub again. Instead of G7 I will use Db7 and Lydin b7 scale. This time a cool sound of a chord changing identity so now DbMa7, Db7, CMa7. I lay for maj7 changing to mi7 which become the ma7 of CMa7. A nice juicy note.

So that give you an idea of mixing chord/scale or key center view and where I would throw a tritone sub in for some color.

Start simple with a tune like Autumn Leaves. Some II-V's to practice if you like. From key centers it is in only two keys Bb major and G minor. The challenge is the key centers are a major and its relative minor so all the notes are the same, but you need to make it sound like two keys using the same notes. Get copy of Cannonball Adderley's version of Autumn Leaves it is a classic to study.

[chicagodoubler]

Not all jazz "changes keys every bar." Freedom jazz dance has one chord. Several tunes like So What, Little Sunflower, etc, only have a couple chords, and huge space between them.

We're pouring out all this info, but I should repeat my mantras.

Get a teacher.

Transcribe.

There are no shortcuts.