What next? Scales, Intervals, Modes

[Aenema]

I'll try to explain where I am at and hopefully someone with more experience can offer some advice. I had set out to memorize where a particular scales lied up and down the entire fretboard to improve my grooving however I discovered modes and they seem function as exactly what I was looking to do. I also found out I should focus on how each degree sounds vs which note I am playing. I understand how they work (3rd determines major or minor and how each mode has a characteristic note) I also read that I should rely on chords rather than key to determine the scale to play. I also discovered that intervals invert which is a nice memory jogger.

Now is there a logical way to take it all in? Or is it straight memorization? I would hate to find out that I took the long way around even though self teaching is a longer way around but lessons can't happen right now.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Aenema

I'll try to explain where I am at and hopefully someone with more experience can offer some advice. I had set out to memorize where a particular scales lied up and down the entire fretboard to improve my grooving however I discovered modes and they seem function as exactly what I was looking to do. I also found out I should focus on how each degree sounds vs which note I am playing. I understand how they work (3rd determines major or minor and how each mode has a characteristic note) I also read that I should rely on chords rather than key to determine the scale to play. I also discovered that intervals invert which is a nice memory jogger. Now is there a logical way to take it all in? Or is it straight memorization? I would hate to find out that I took the long way around even though self teaching is a longer way around but lessons can't happen right now.

How do you use all that? As you need it is the best answer I can come up with. It's stored already you just need to be able to grab what you need - when you need it.

For example those inversions, neat, helps us make riffs that do not always start on the root. There is a place for this, but, there is a place for the riffs to start with the root also.

Do you use 3 or b3 in your riff. IMO if its minor it should get the b3. A study of what chord intervals take priority over others is worth a look see, i.e. the slash chord Am7/D - the D takes priority over everything. Next on the list; the root is always safe, 3 or b3 is the next logical choice to throw into your bass line riff, followed with the 5 then the 7 or b7. I don't normally go beyond that, nothing stopping you, however.

As to scales and modes - IMO these take priority when we are providing melody as in a lead break, other than that chord tones are our bread and butter. Begs the question how many lead breaks are you handed?

Originally Posted by Aenema

I would hate to find out that I took the long way around even though self teaching is a longer way around but lessons can't happen right now.

So how do you use all that knowledge? Play songs and grab what you think is needed. The more songs you play the easier it will become. The time you spend playing songs is time well spent. The Internet is full of backing tracks now days grab some of them and jamm away.

Good luck.

[guroove]

I think before you try to incorporate modal playing into your repertoire, you need to understand how to put together bass lines. You got it close when you said you should be listening to the chord to determine what scales to play, but this isn't 100% right in 100% of situations.

You cannot go wrong constructing *bass lines* by arpeggiating the chord that you are on. You will often find that in a lot of older forms of music, that the chords will all jive with each other diatonically. So if you are in C major, the F chord will be major, the G chord will be dominant, and the D chord will be minor, and so on. You can play D Dorian over the D chord, and G mixolydian over the G chord, but you are really just playing in C major, and changing your starting points.

If you are playing over changes that jive together, you don't need to think modally unless it helps you out. If you are soloing, it is often hard to think in terms of a different mode every time a new chord comes up.

There is a lot of grey area as to what is "correct" when soloing over changes, and IMO, it is more important to gain a sense of what sounds right before delving into the world of modes and soloing over changes. A solo should be a melody, not noodling in modes over chords. Learn how to construct good bass lines, and learn to play melodies. Play in the key. If you are doing all three of these things simultaneously, you may find that you are free to express yourself now, and can do no wrong. Walk before you run. Good luck!

[Aenema]

The funny thing is my ability to write bass lines and my finger acrobatics were amazing about 9 years ago before I drifted away from playing simply because I played for hours every day. I knew only the pentatonic minor but over time learned to play almost anything by feel. I am learning theory to know why certain things sound the way they do and hopefully expand my playing. I also forgot to mention I am learning guitar as well so the modes might have a better application there.

Few more questions:

How do we know what we need to take our playing to a new level? Is that where an instructor would come in handy? Maybe ask other players what opened up their playing?

Thanks a lot guys!

[oren]

The way I learned was to learn one two octave major scale fingering (say, G major starting on the E string and going up) and then played that up and down the neck as high as I could go, playing straight scales, alternating thirds (G-B, A-C, B-D, C-E, etc), and four-steps (G-A-B-C, A-B-C-D, B-C-D-E, etc), and arpeggios (G-B-D-F#, A-C-E-G, B-D-F#-A, etc).

Then I applied that same fingering pattern to the next mode (A Dorian). You have to adjust a bit to be able to get to the high A instead of stopping at the G, and in that adjustment you learn to extend the pattern. Learn that up and down the neck with the same patterns, then apply it to the next mode (B Phrygian) and so on.

When you get done with the seven modes of the major scale, you can then apply the same process to learn melodic minor and its modes, harmonic minor, and the odd-ball scales like whole-tone-half-tone (diminished) and whole-tone.

I've been to a couple of clinics with Portland guitarist John Stowell who has made an art of studying and applying the melodic minor modes to jazz.

There are some guidelines about which of modes and scales go best with which kinds of chords and it's good to know those as starting points, but you should let your ear be your ultimate guide.

A good reference is Marc Sabatella's online Jazz Improvisation Primer, particularly the section on chord/scale relationships: http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/p...-primer-4.html

[Rudreax]

The modes will have an application an any instrument. It doesn't matter what you play since it's something that applies to ALL instruments in music. If I were you I wouldn't worry about modes until you have everything else you think you know under your belt, along with a good understanding of chords and chord progressions.

Yeah, this is where a teacher comes in handy. A decent one can show you what you know, along with what you need to learn and what you need to do to improve what you already know.

[251]

+1 Marc's book is a very good lesson.

[MalcolmAmos]

1+ to forgetting about relative modes for now. When should you look into relative modes? I suggest you leave relative modes behind and....

....if you must do modes do paralell modes. Key stays the same and the notes change.

Major progression - the major scale is your home base.
Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or the major scale.
Lydian = 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7 one note difference.
Mixolydian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7 again one note difference.

Minor progression - the natural minor scale is your home base.
Aeolian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 or the natural minor scale.
Dorian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 one note difference.
Phrygian = 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 one note difference.
Locrian = 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7 the 2 and 5 are flatted.

Stay in the same key and change the notes, i.e. if you want Mixolydian's feel, stay in the major scale and just flat the 7th. If you want Phrygian's exotic Spanish feel stay in the natural minor scale and flat the 2.

If you took Mixolydian's notes and flatted the 3rd what would you have? Good ole Dorian. But, the big boys told me to not mix major and minor. I bet the big boys were talking about relative modes where you change the key and keep the same notes. With paralell modes you stay in the same key and help yourself to what ever characteristic mode note (#4, natural 6, flat 7, etc.) you think should be in the mix. What! How many major chords are in a major key? Three. How many minor chords are in that same Major key? Three and one diminished chord, which is understood to also be minor. So if you stay in the same key help yourself to any part of the key you think will add something to the tune.

Now is that easy or what? That open my door to a whole new World.

Start by seeing what you can do with just the major and natural minor scale. Then see what happens when you throw in one of the characteristic notes. No big deal just one note.......

Now the rest of this story has to do with the chords you are playing those notes over, but, that is another story.

Have fun.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

1+ to forgetting about relative modes for now. When should you look into relative modes? I suggest you leave relative modes behind and....

....if you must do modes do paralell modes. Key stays the same and the notes change.

Major progression - the major scale is your home base.
Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or the major scale.
Lydian = 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7 one note difference.
Mixolydian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7 again one note difference.

Minor progression - the natural minor scale is your home base.
Aeolian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 or the natural minor scale.
Dorian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 one note difference.
Phrygian = 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 one note difference.
Locrian = 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7 the 2 and 5 are flatted.

Stay in the same key and change the notes, i.e. if you want Mixolydian's feel, stay in the major scale and just flat the 7th. If you want Phrygian's exotic Spanish feel stay in the natural minor scale and flat the 2.

If you took Mixolydian's notes and flatted the 3rd what would you have? Good ole Dorian. But, the big boys told me to not mix major and minor. I bet the big boys were talking about relative modes where you change the key and keep the same notes. With paralell modes you stay in the same key and help yourself to what ever characteristic mode note (#4, natural 6, flat 7, etc.) you think should be in the mix. What! How many major chords are in a major key? Three. How many minor chords are in that same Major key? Three and one diminished chord, which is understood to also be minor. So if you stay in the same key help yourself to any part of the key you think will add something to the tune.

Now is that easy or what? That open my door to a whole new World.

Start by seeing what you can do with just the major and natural minor scale. Then see what happens when you throw in one of the characteristic notes. No big deal just one note.......

Have fun.

...Well, yeah, you could learn this, since it would be better. I don't really know where you're getting the names though...I'd just call them the interval patterns for the specific mode. That's something you should definitely know.

However, I really meant this as well. You use all of these thing in conjunction to the chord you're playing over, and you can get the best sounds by knowing when certain thing will sound good over certain chords. That's why I say don't worry about them at all unless you know about your chords. You need to understand the context in which you use a mode, which is essentially whatever chord progression you're playing in; this comes with learning about chord theory.

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes, I agree. You copied prior to me adding my last sentence. I also agree with what JTE had to say.

OK, here's my longer response to "how to use modes"...

Why practice modes? Well, I don't think you should practice them. At least not until you understand basic harmony.

I. Do you know the major scale- that is-
A. You know the whole-step and half-step formula for making a major scale
B. You know how to figure out the notes in any major key, using the correct enharmonics
C. You know what it sounds like- you know what the next note will sound like before you play it
D. You can find it and play it over two octaves ascending and descending in any key

II. Do you know how to build the basic chords- that is, you KNOW
A. A major chord is 1 3 5
B. A minor chord is 1 b3 5
C. A 7th chord is 1 3 5 b7
D. A minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7
E. A major 7 is 1 3 5 7
F. A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7 (and you understand why it's called the bb7, not the 6)
G. An augmented chord is 1 3 #5

III. You understand and know the chords that come from the scale when you harmonize it- that is you KNOW not only that the chords are:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min7
vii min7 b5 (or half-diminished)
BUT, you know WHY!!!

IV. You can work out how to play the arpeggio over two octaves ascending and descending the chords in any key. You don't have to memorize them (heck, I hate memorization), but you can figure them out and they make sense.

V. You know how a ii V I defines a key center

Then you can start learning and practicing modes. But when you do, do them all from one tonic. Don't learn C Ionian then D Dorian, etc. You have to OWN the differences between them for them to be of any use. And frankly, the way most people explain modes, is stupid and pointless.

If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chords DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first.

Now, if you're playing strictly modal stuff, you need to understand the mode just like I say you should know the major scale (see #I up above). If you don't know all that stuff about Lydian, you don't know the mode at all; you're just wiggling your fingers.


John
__________________
JTE

Bass and modes fit only when the bass is used as a lead instrument, i.e. when the bass has a lead break. I'm pedaling about as fast as I can just keeping a good bass line going, I'll be leaving the lead breaks to others for several years.

[MarkTAW]

Learn the meaning & purpose of the tonic, dominant, and subdominant chords and how all those scales, modes and intervals fit into that framework.

A lot of music can be thought of/analyzed in terms of those 3 types of chords.

Learning scales & intervals is a good stepping stone, you need to know that stuff to learn chord construction. Once you know chord construction, you can learn these 3 chords and their substitutes.

Once you know those 3 chords and their substitutes, other thing will start falling into place.