When does thoery become reality?

[cowsgomoo]

it's pretty obvious that not every piece of music contains a chord sequence of ii-V-I, that's probably not the issue...

i spose the issue is whether the 'laws' regarding how western harmony works and how chords function are the same for every piece of music in all circumstances... i.e. a 7 chord always 'means' a 7 chord to everyone and whether its resolution (doesn't necessarily have to be to a I chord in order to be appropriate... in fact it doesn't even HAVE to resolve to still work)

i'm inclined to agree with the statement "everything is ii-V-I in tonal music", IF that statement means that the ii-V-I structure is a fundamental, inescapable building block of our tonal vocabulary, and whether it's 'Naima' or 'Pop Goes The Weasel', the music works because of our inherent understanding of this framework and to what extent the chords follow/disregard this structure

after all... a 'weird' sounding chord sequence wouldn't sound 'weird' if there wasn't a set idea in people's minds about what chords traditionally do

[Slot]

I'll agree that the V-I movement, whether it be diatonic, or whether it be a v7 that resolves to an unrelated tonal centre, is a major building block for contemporary music. Not the be all and and all, but certainly a huge part of how contemporary music is constructed these days. However, i disagree that the ii chord has as much relevance, or importance as the v or the i. In the concept of ii v i, the ii chord is not much more than a pivot chord that allows for a smoother transition into the v chord, i dont see it as being a building block for contemporary music

i iv v i has made a much larger imapct than ii v i imo. But i still wouldnt classify the iv chord as a building block.

But hey, thats just the way i see it .....just an educated opinion....but you know what they say about opinions........

[Howard K]

Major 3rds are Evil

I must say find this mildy offensive and rather unneccessary! Some of my best friends are major thirds and they regularly help me out in times of need.

it's pretty obvious that not every piece of music contains a chord sequence of ii-V-I, that's probably not the issue...

I'm not entirely sure what the issue is myself. Ninestring was saying that all music is based on we II-V-I, some people disagreed, and here we are.
Not that any if it actually matters. I'm sure we've outcast the original poster by now anyway

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Ninestring
Ok-so you don't work alot.

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or is it just a coincidence? Where do you get the idea that I don't work a lot? I work plenty...what I don't do is post my "resume" in every other post here as if dropping names is somehow going to make my point more credible, which it won't if the argument doesn't stand on its own. We have a thing on this site called a PROFILE, which is the appropriate place to put resume-type info for anyone who wants to see it. Before you assume that someone doesn't work or doesn't know what they are talking about, you might try clicking on their PROFILE before talking trash about what that person does or doesn't do or know.


So I suggest you pick the last 1000 top teh hits,film scores ,jingles, production music libraries or any musi other than the obscure,isolated music you have mentioned and show me where a one,two or five chord hasn't been played,

How about any top 10 rap number? I'm not a fan of rap at all, but IT EXISTS, IT'S POPULAR, and it often CONTAINS NO HARMONY AT ALL. Where there is no harmony, where are all of the ii, V, and I chords? There aren't any. Duh.

And the "obscure, isolated music I have mentioned" was only mentioned because you insisted that Every song on the radio has a ii or a V or a I chord being played at any given moment... , and that, You don't have a tune without the ii-V-I "gravity.".... I provided those examples in an effort to steer the conversation away from absolute statements, and you come back with more absolute statements without ever answering my question about "what about all of these exceptions to the "rules" you posted?". Nice. Very nice.


Do you guys ever do "gigs;"? Are you telling me the music never has a two or five or one chord ?

Yes. Again, see "PROFILES". And again, of course the music is full of ii-V-I's. but, YET AGAIN, NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG has them. Reading is fine, but how about comprehension?

Who cares how someone spells their name, you know who I mean...

Who cares how someone who is blatantly name-dropping spells the names he is dropping? I do. If you are trying to elicit the impression of a close association with a person, and you can't even spell their name correctly, it says a lot more about your actual association with that person than your attempt to bring your argument up by mentioning them. How would it look if I said that I had studied with Ruefuss Read?

(Hint: it would look like I didn't know him at all)


-the guy who started this thread-if he was going in the direction of Berg,or Schoenberg or Stravinsky-would he be on Talk bass asking for input ? Any electric bass player alive knows that the electric bass is used in pop, jazz,shows , etc. not 20th century orchestral music.

He was asking for theory input. You told him that ALL music ALWAYS does _______. I pointed out that this was untrue, and posted a list of exceptions such as 20th century orchestral music, traditional African and Indian music, and much Rap. You then proceeded to have a cow, but refused to admit that the words, "ALL", "ALWAYS", and "EVERY" are probably not the best ones to use in a discussiion like this.. So you tell me, who's trying to mislead who?

Once again- everything in popular music: the songs on the radio which include Country,R& B, Rock, Funk,Jazz, Broadway musicals, N'Sync, Brittany Spears, Stevie Wonder or Elvis or Frank Sinatra or ten thousand other recording artist rely on ii-V-I. Every song you play on a gig does.

Since you haven't been at any of my gigs, I'd have to call this another completely unsubstantiated statement, since I play tunes that don't do this regularly, and in fact listed a goodly number of them in response to one of Howard K's posts. The fact that you claim to know things that you could not possibly know and cannot substantiate does not reflect well on your arguments. So why not just relax a bit and admit that it would be better to say "MOST" instead of "EVERY"? I honsestly don't see what's so complicated about that.

It is what makes music work. It's what you guys who want to learn theory must know.

Once again:

There are 9 vertical chord stacks or chord families. They cover the major and minor keys.each of the 9 chord families funtion as a ii or a V or a i chord. These functions end up having 119 chord progressions which you have heard a million times.The vertical stacks have horizontal scales thaat work as a melody and solo source for the chor stacks. The chord progressions fit into phttases, 2,4,8,16etc. The phrases fit into a song form such as A,A,B,A or verse/chorus. Styles of music determine the 'feel" and groove. Rhumba,Rock ,Cha Cha,swing,Punk, alternative all use the same elements. There is quarter,eigth,sixteen and triplet feels. either you can play anything and read anything,or you musically are illiterate.

This is the real stuff that any real musicians know and rely on. why try so hard to make me look like an idiot...

I must protest and give credit where it is due - you are doing most of the work when it comes to this last point.

[Pacman]

Originally posted by Ninestring
Ok-so you don't work alot.

and


Do you guys ever do "gigs;"? Are you telling me the music never has a two or five or one chord ?

I'd be willing to bet I do more dates a year than you do, Sparky.

[Chris A]

Ok, I wanted to make sure Chris and Pac got in their responses to the silliness before I close this. I'm sorry to the original posters of these threads, but this isn't what talkbass was meant for........


Chris A.