when is it time to fire a student?

[davec]

Ok, With the help of a former dudepit member I gave a bass to a teen that I mentor through church, I offered free lessons in exchange for a church program (thus showing that he attend church that weekend, with the eventual goal that he would play with the teen praise and worship group). I gave the bass to his mom and asked that he not know who the bass came from. I show him some basics one finger per fret warm up stuff, so that he could get comfortable with the bass and then we would start lessons.....

We were set to start last Sunday after church, I get there no teen.... I catch up with him later in the week and ask why no call? he says he's sorry he overslept..... I let him know that I changed my plans to accommodate his lesson and that in the future he needs to call me.....
It was not a standing lesson , but rather a let me know what day and I'll let you know. I haven't heard from him or if he wants to reschedule. I'm thinking, the desire may not be there and I screwed up just giving him a bass. I wouldn't ask for it back, but I am thinking of calling mom and asking her, if the kid doesn't want to pursue this if she can pass the blessing along to someone who does.....

Am I getting ahead of myself or what ?

[meev992]

oh boy,

inconsiderate kid.

[Green Mind]

No, that sounds completely fair asking his mom, if he's not interested then it should go to someone who is. Why waste it on someone who's not willing to learn.

[morf]

Originally Posted by davec

Ok, With the help of a former dudepit member I gave a bass to a teen that I mentor through church, I offered free lessons in exchange for a church program (thus showing that he attend church that weekend, with the eventual goal that he would play with the teen praise and worship group). I gave the bass to his mom and asked that he not know who the bass came from. I show him some basics one finger per fret warm up stuff, so that he could get comfortable with the bass and then we would start lessons.....

We were set to start last Sunday after church, I get there no teen.... I catch up with him later in the week and ask why no call? he says he's sorry he overslept..... I let him know that I changed my plans to accommodate his lesson and that in the future he needs to call me.....
It was not a standing lesson , but rather a let me know what day and I'll let you know. I haven't heard from him or if he wants to reschedule. I'm thinking, the desire may not be there and I screwed up just giving him a bass. I wouldn't ask for it back, but I am thinking of calling mom and asking her, if the kid doesn't want to pursue this if she can pass the blessing along to someone who does.....

Am I getting ahead of myself or what ?

No, you're not, do exactly what you just said, its the right thing to do.

[MakiSupaStar]

The mom can pass the blessing onto me. I'll take that bass and play it.

[Thor]

You put the cart before the horse.

You have to qualify interest much better. Then you could have
loaned him the bass and said he could practice at the church or
at home, with the understanding that others students might need
to share it and that you would call for it regularly.

Then if you got no progress, you could take it, and force him
to demonstrate some initiative to request it. If he actually
wanted to.

People don't often value what comes to them for nothing.

Your mistake here was to assume that this would motivate him
to participate in a religious life in a more diligent way.
Correct me if I am wrong in that this was your agenda in this?

From a behavioral standpoint, rewards only work if they are
actually rewarding to the rewardee. (Rats love Rice Krispies
in the lab, don't feed them steel shavings they don't taste good.)
Thus the activities that motivate the person you are influencing
need to be well qualified.

If there is a failure here, it is likely yours, by way of making
poor or inadequate assumptions.

Let me give a few examples.

Years ago, I worked with a group of people that dealt with
autistic children. The program was run by a rather
controversial figure, the Harvard educated Dr. Matthew
Israel; a student of Behaviorist B.F. Skinner. Everything about
the program, including employee relationships was considered
in the context of reward and punishment.

If you were one minute or more late to work, you were fined
a dollar (I made 80 a week). So, if I got got caught in traffic,
and I had lost the buck already, at that point I would haul off
and hit Dunkin Donuts, I already lost the buck.

They realized I was interested in using their darkroom. They
decided that they would offer that as an incentive for me
to 'get with the program'.

What they hadn't qualified was that this relentlessly rebellious
musician would rather tell them to BARK OFF!, than
to accept their incentive to toe THEIR line and their program.

For professional psychologists, they really didn't get much
about real life and real people.

Man up, and go have a talk with the kid. Yes, the bass came
from you, and say so. Ask if he intends to use it, and
encourage him to. If he isn't interested, take it for someone
else.

Don't paint the door shut, be sure you say, 'If you change your mind,
call me , and I'll get it over as soon as I can.
And by the way, the teen praise group is practicing, want to watch??? '

Maybe watching others work out music and enjoying the
experience should come first. And then is the chance to
note that the others rely heavily on the bassist to be there for them.
Consistently.

Anyway, I probably said too much. Just don't fire him because
you did a crappy job, do better one yourself first.

[kerryg]

A gift is a gift. It carries no conditions. If something is expected in return, ranging from a reciprocal gift to a specific behaviour, it's not called a gift, it's called a bargain or an exchange.

It's traditional for all parties to a bargain or exchange to be fully informed of the conditions that bind them before the transaction goes through. There are no such conditions on charity or gifts.

So you need to first clarify in your own mind whether that was a gift motivated by a spirit of charity - or a commercial transaction that you were unclear in communicating the reciprocal terms of - before you proceed.

This isn't an opinion on what you should do, it's just clarifying the facts so you can clarify your own decision process on this.

[bikeplate]

HI

I dont think your idea is the wrong one. A student is only a student if they show up. Some will achieve more than others but the key is their effort and attendance. Im sure his peers and teenage things are much more important to him right now. If thats the case, another teen would be more suited for your gift. Id talk to his parent and do what you intended

Rob

[Marcury]

You have to ask yourself why you gave this kid a bass in the first place and why you did it anonymously at that. After you realize your intentions, look at the kid, did he want a bass? Did your actions meet any agenda the kid had or was it just fulfilling your own. If only your own than be clear that you act of generosity was predicated on a set of expectations that may have been unrealistic in the situation. But it was an act of generosity; do you really want to take that back or understand that perhaps you need to be more considered next time?

[Infernal Affair]

I think Thor is being too harsh. davec may have gotten a little ahead of himself and made assumptions, but it's not necessarily his fault that this situation happened. It is good to think positively. However, just keep in mind teenagers can be VERY flakey, especially if they aren't totally interested. When I was a teen I often wanted to do all sorts of cool things like play instruments or take martial arts, but I lacked the self motivation to push myself into it. Unless someone forced me into doing things, I usually didn't show complete interest. It wasn't cool to be pushy.

My question to davec is was the teen very interested in playing bass initially? If not, then I would suggest giving the lessons and bass to someone who is. You cannot force motivation on a teen. They'll easily rebel.

I'm in a similar situation at my church. There's a teen who really wants to learn bass yet has no gear of his own. Every week he asks to see my bass so he could fiddle around with it, and every week he asks if I could teach him. Unfortunately we have band practices after service so I never seem to find time to teach him, but since his interest level is high I plan on eventually buying a cheap, but solid SX to use as a "church bass" so that anybody who wants to use it can. That way I can teach him a few things.

This is a kid who is known to be a troublemaker and very mischievous. Other people don't believe that he'll learn bass because of it and that he'll lose interest quickly, but I know that he really wants to learn and seems much more motivated than what people take him for. If he starts and eventually loses interest then that's fine, but at least he was given a chance! I think that's the main problem with adults and teens these days. Adults don't realize that teenagers are interested in things. It's just that teens don't like to show that they're interested.

Excuse me to all the teenagers who frequent the board. I don't mean for my broad generalizations to cover you guys, since you're already motivated to do something, which is great. This is just my own experiences talking.

[Johnny StingRay]

I think you might have to just let this one go and chalk it up as a good learning experience in present day middle class teenage malaise to putting effort into anything. I teach and have given many things and money to my students whose life situation did not allow them to have even basic things like a coat or bus fare. Everyone of those students showed appreciation and said thank you to me. Then there is my teenage nephew. My sister adopted him from a bad situation in Korea, but he was a newborn. His father, (my brother in law) passed away four years ago and that was rough on him, of course, but he is not in want of anything and has a comfortable life. Well anyway, I'm making this story too long...........he hooked up with a garage band from school and was playing a borrowed bass. I gave him my old Yamaha RBX200, my old Peavey TKO 80, a case, cables, a tuner, and a Digitech BP80 so he could gig with the band with his own gear. Well, my sister picked up the gear for him. I didn't hear from him or my sister for a week. I thought he'd at least call and say, "Hey thanks Uncle John!!! The gear is great. I'm having fun jamming with the group." or whatever. Nothing. No call. No email. My wife got pissed and said to call him to see what he would say. So I called and played it off like I was checking to make sure the gear was working, if he had any questions about the amp or BP80, etc. He said this, "Oh, hi Uncle John............yep the gear works........do you want to talk to mom? Bye." That was it. I thought I was doing him a favor. Heck I gave him some nice gear for free because he's my nephew, and he couldn't even say "Thank You." I was pissed at first, but I let it go. I'll never do that again, though.
So, the Lord knows you did the right thing. Let it go, ask his mom to pass it forward. If she does fine, if not, oh well, let it go. Maybe the next kid who gets it will be the one who was supposed to get it in the first place and it's just God's way of getting it to him/her?
Peace,
John

[glwanabe]

I don't think Thor is being harsh. I believe he nailed it, but that is also my basic assessment.

At least your trying to be part of the solution.

[Dbassmon]

Dave, this is a noble thing you have attempted. From an outsiders view;
1) you are the only one participating in this relationship
2) you can not make someone passionate about music, education or art if they don't care
3) education requires sacrifice, commitment and desire (this kid is batting 0 for 3)

He needs to be fired. It's the most important lesson you teach him at this point. Don't make him guess, be straight up with him and tell politely but firmly.... Dude you are outta here!

IMO

[kerryg]

and the conflict of interest inherent in those roles is something that's making this situation more complex.

You defined your previous role as mentor. Mentors take a proactive interest in the development of their proteges; they stay constant through the transient interaction between those proteges and their instructors and ease them through the tough spots.

You defined your current interest as instructor. Your student's interaction with you is defined as a simple exchange of skill training for considerations of some sort.

You also mentioned your interest in your church acquiring a bassist. This puts you in the position of advocate for your church's interest.

The mentor in you should keep in mind that wearing these distinctly different hats can lead to a conflict of interest that can subtly or greatly undermine his discharge of his mentorship duties towards his protege.

You're catching this kid at a formative, transitional point in his life. What you do to resolve this sets an example for him. Navigate very carefully.

[onlyclave]

Hey Davec

Just my 2 cents but this kind of smelled like a covert evangelical move on someone who doesn't like your ulterior motives. If you want to teach the kid how to play music do exactly that with no conditions of going to church. It's quite possible that he does care about playing music, just not "In His name", whowhatimsaying?

Enjoying my freedom from religion,
-OC

[WayneS]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Hey Davec

Just my 2 cents but this kind of smelled like a covert evangelical move on someone who doesn't like your ulterior motives. If you want to teach the kid how to play music do exactly that with no conditions of going to church. It's quite possible that he does care about playing music, just not "In His name", whowhatimsaying?

Enjoying my freedom from religion,
-OC

+1

I agree with onlyclave. Perhaps you should have asked where his interest lies first?

[Rickett Customs]

Never had a student do that.
But, you can only do what you said you were going to do, thats all, the rest is not up to you. It may be time to "let go", unless onlyclave is on to something.
You could always try and teach him outside of church, that way you could tell whether it's his actual motivation or not.

The only student I had to fire (Well temporarily), was pretty much getting a little too "big for his britches" (acquired a rather large ego)and decided that he was gonna challenge me to a "bassoff", to say the least I reminded him that " I showed him everything he knows, but not everything I know", and I did'nt think it was a good idea that he do this (Hey I warned him)None the less, ultimately he learned a hard lesson, he did'nt have to pay for it either (Should've charged him for it). After that incident, I think he realized he had more to learn, so i ended up teaching him a few more years.
He NEVER pulled that trick again, but, I believe that made us really good friends though, at the cost of his his humiliation.

And the moral of that story is: Lose the ego, you're better off.
Thats the only firing experience I've had though.

[nubs]

Good thing Jesus doesn't take his gifts back, even when we don't use the appropriately!

[Infernal Affair]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Hey Davec

Just my 2 cents but this kind of smelled like a covert evangelical move on someone who doesn't like your ulterior motives. If you want to teach the kid how to play music do exactly that with no conditions of going to church. It's quite possible that he does care about playing music, just not "In His name", whowhatimsaying?

Enjoying my freedom from religion,
-OC

I am sorry, but I'm kind of offended. So what if he's trying to get a teenager to go to church? The deal is that the teen attends church and he gives him bass lessons. It was discussed between them and that's the payment. There's nothing covert about it. He gave the bass in secret probably because he felt that he didn't want the teenager in question to feel guilty or that he owed him something, but only davec knows the real reason.

If he gave him lessons in exchange for attending school, would people be all uppity about it? Of course not. If he gave him lessons in exchange for doing community service would people call shenanigans? No, they'd probably be praising him for thinking of such a good idea. Somehow when religion is involved people who aren't religious get all bothered. It's not a conspiracy. Sheesh.

If the kid wants to learn outside of going to church then that'd be something to discuss between him and davec. Perhaps dave can shed a little bit more details on the situation before things get muddied up by outside assumptions on all our parts.

kerryg makes a terrific point about how different roles come into play. The easy thing would be to "fire him," which is the camp I am in, but davec also has a role as a kid's mentor, something that I didn't think deeply about. It's a delicate situation.

[PocketGroove82]

I would recommend getting his money for the whole month in advance and telling him (and his mom) that if he misses a lesson without a call or misses a reschedualed lesson, then there will not be a make up lesson. That is the way it is done with music lessons in college. Teaching music for money is a business, despite the fact that many of us love doing it. I would not get emotionally over-invested in you students. If a student doesn't really want to learn and frequently comes in unprepared, I have no problem with taking his parents money and babysitting for an hour. I do not take it personally, and it doesn't bother me at all because I charge enough to make it worthwhile, reguardless.

My time and your time is valuable, treat it as such. Fire him or don't, but work the situation to where you are no longer being taken advantaged of. If he misses a lesson like that again, you still get paid because you re-tooled your schedual around him. Also, I would not go around giving away basses to people just so you can teach them bass. If they have a genuine intrest in the instrument, then they have to take the 1st step.

I really think that if you charged monthly in advance, then you would not be worrying about him not showing up. You would have still gotten paid for sitting around and waiting for an hour.
As for my students, if they are responsible adults then I happily accept cash by the lesson, but if they are teens or childen, then one must consider the insurance inherent in the monthly thing.