Where do I go after Scales and Chords?

[Duce-hands]

So I put the time in to learn my scales, different chord fingering, and can work my way through the seven modes. However, I'm at a lost for where do I go next in my bass learning. I know people say transcribing, but my ear is very raw and even after weeks with a piece I'm unable to pick it up by ear. I'm more of a groove type player and would rather improv over tune and expand on the groove but at a lost for how to do it. Any suggestions?

Signed Stuck in mediocrity

[Dazzare]

Get in a band and Start Jamming and Learn how to connect those modes without fail and everything will come together.

[jmattbassplaya]

Are you able to apply your knowledge on the fly in a jam setting with a band? If not, I'd say that should be your next step. I remember thinking I knew my fair share of theory, but it became obvious that I really didn't until I was able to 'think on my toes' so to speak. It's a part of learning how to really speak the language.

And unfortunately, learning how to transcribe is an essential part of the learning process to become an exceptional musician. I wouldn't skip on it. Start with easy songs from bands like U2, The Ramones, The Cars, The Police, etc... and work your way from there. Also work on transcribing other instruments. Sax and trumpet solos from jazz songs can really open the door on one's bass playing.

[Dazey]

what are the 7 modes?

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by Dazey

what are the 7 modes?

Whether spoken from years of experience or as an innocent question, far too much emphasis is placed on "modes."

How many of you actually play truly "modal" music? Wayne Shorter compositions; Miles Davis compositions; Bill Evans compositions - dig in there and you'll find modal music. For 95% of rock music, it's chord function, not modal music.

That said, the seven basic "Church" modes are:

ionian
dorian
phrygian
lydian
mixolydian
aeolian (relative minor)
locrian

They involve playing each chord from the ionian-based major scale as the tonic or tonal center.

[Dazey]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Whether spoken from years of experience or as an innocent question, far too much emphasis is placed on "modes."

How many of you actually play truly "modal" music? Wayne Shorter compositions; Miles Davis compositions; Bill Evans compositions - dig in there and you'll find modal music. For 95% of rock music, it's chord function, not modal music.

That said, the seven basic "Church" modes are:

ionian
dorian
phrygian
lydian
mixolydian
aeolian (relative minor)
locrian

They involve playing each chord from the ionian-based major scale as the tonic or tonal center.

aren't 5 of those the CAGED sequence scales? if so i already know 5

[VanillaThundah]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Are you able to apply your knowledge on the fly in a jam setting with a band? If not, I'd say that should be your next step. I remember thinking I knew my fair share of theory, but it became obvious that I really didn't until I was able to 'think on my toes' so to speak. It's a part of learning how to really speak the language.

big + 1 to that


This is difference between training for war and ENGAGING in war. For a rehearsed piece where every other musician never screws up or a studio part where you play a set bassline by yourself, you'd have it in the bag. What you need is, as jmatt said, "knowledge on the fly" in a band situation. When the drummer goes off beat, the guitarist plays the wrong chord, or the song starts off in a different key you have to keep your head straight and hopefully (experience permitting) save the day from any of those previous situations. Bass is the glue of the band, and without it stuff will just fall apart or not seem unified. You carry the chord progression when the guitarist fumbles, you keep the backbeat when the drums get off, and you "accidentally" push the vocalist off stage when he takes credit for everything

...ok just kidding about that last part. No substitute for experience, my friend...go out and amass some!

[Duke21]

Originally Posted by VanillaThundah

big + 1 to that

This is difference between training for war and ENGAGING in war. For a rehearsed piece where every other musician never screws up or a studio part where you play a set bassline by yourself, you'd have it in the bag. What you need is, as jmatt said, "knowledge on the fly" in a band situation. When the drummer goes off beat, the guitarist plays the wrong chord, or the song starts off in a different key you have to keep your head straight and hopefully (experience permitting) save the day from any of those previous situations. Bass is the glue of the band, and without it stuff will just fall apart or not seem unified. You carry the chord progression when the guitarist fumbles, you keep the backbeat when the drums get off, and you "accidentally" push the vocalist off stage when he takes credit for everything

...ok just kidding about that last part. No substitute for experience, my friend...go out and amass some!

Nice one, pushing the vocalist off the stage....

[Marty Forrer]

If you're a rock/pop/blues/country/Irish/Latin player, or aspire to be, then learning modes, scales and gobs of theory is something to aim for later down the track. The most important thing a beginner can do is learn basslines by working them out from listening to CDs, Youtube etc. Learn your pentatonic scale..... it's all you'll need. When I picked up a bass guitar in 1962 at the age of 15 I knew nothing about music. I picked a record (in this instance Walk Dont Run by the Ventures) and played the grooves off that vinyl 45 learning where to put my fingers to copy the bassline. When I had learnt that I went on to another and so on. After a few months I knew enough songs to get a job playing bass in a working covers band. In 18 months I was in a full professional band RUMBLE & BANG TRAILER - YouTube
At this stage I knew the notes on the fingerboard but knew not one single scale, mode, any harmony, nothing. I was 41 before I decided to go to music school and get some education.
My point is that learning songs will get any beginner up and running WAY quicker than learning theory and harmony. Learn a repetoire first.... THEN learn theory and harmony.

[Duce-hands]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Are you able to apply your knowledge on the fly in a jam setting with a band? If not, I'd say that should be your next step. I remember thinking I knew my fair share of theory, but it became obvious that I really didn't until I was able to 'think on my toes' so to speak. It's a part of learning how to really speak the language.

And unfortunately, learning how to transcribe is an essential part of the learning process to become an exceptional musician. I wouldn't skip on it. Start with easy songs from bands like U2, The Ramones, The Cars, The Police, etc... and work your way from there. Also work on transcribing other instruments. Sax and trumpet solos from jazz songs can really open the door on one's bass playing.

Thanks for the info. Can you give me an example to reference "thinking on my toes". I'm really at a lose at this point. Right now I'm jamming weekly with an experience drummer and it's basically just improvisation around a genre. I guess my question is I know my western scales and modes and the basic appreggios but applying them beyond a basic groove is where I get lost. I'm struggling with applying the technical to the practical. And I haven't given up on transcribing I'm just not very good at it.

[g4string]

Originally Posted by Marty Forrer

If you're a rock/pop/blues/country/Irish/Latin player, or aspire to be, then learning modes, scales and gobs of theory is something to aim for later down the track. The most important thing a beginner can do is learn basslines by working them out from listening to CDs, Youtube etc. Learn your pentatonic scale..... it's all you'll need. When I picked up a bass guitar in 1962 at the age of 15 I knew nothing about music. I picked a record (in this instance Walk Dont Run by the Ventures) and played the grooves off that vinyl 45 learning where to put my fingers to copy the bassline. When I had learnt that I went on to another and so on. After a few months I knew enough songs to get a job playing bass in a working covers band. In 18 months I was in a full professional band RUMBLE & BANG TRAILER - YouTube
At this stage I knew the notes on the fingerboard but knew not one single scale, mode, any harmony, nothing. I was 41 before I decided to go to music school and get some education.
My point is that learning songs will get any beginner up and running WAY quicker than learning theory and harmony. Learn a repetoire first.... THEN learn theory and harmony.

No offense, but that is the worst possible advice one could give to any "green" bass player or other musician.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by JerryGallo

Riffs, lines, licks, parts and melodies.

Your question, as I understand it, how to improvise over a tune and lay down a groove. Let's talk about improvising first, yes they are two different skills. Of course IMO.

As mentioned above; Sooner or later you gotta get to the melody. You can improvise scales/modes, chord tones and arpeggios, but, it will always sound like scales/modes, chord tones and arpeggios until you bring in the melody of the song. I know the question is how to do that. See what is done in this video. Peace Piece (Bill Evans) - solo jazz piano - YouTube copy down the text that come on the screen. Here is Scott on the bass improvising to Autumn Leaves Autumn Leaves - Solo Bass Improvisation - Scott Devine - YouTube Listen for the repeated head he comes back to. Then at about 2:15 the recognized melody moves into the picture. Sooner or later the melody has to be there.

The vocalist or the lead guitar has been playing or singing the melody - all of a sudden you are given the lead - what does the audience want to hear, certainly not scales/modes, chord tones or arpeggios. They want to hear some more of the song's melody.

The tune - probably no more than 8 to 12 bars that repeat. So learn some tunes.

Now the rest of the story. Until you can play the tune there is no reason to accept a lead break. There are others in the band to do this -- learn how to play better accompaniment bass lines. At this point in your journey laying down a bass line is more important than playing a solo. Of course, again IMO.

What next then. Start playing with others. It opens doors you did not even know were there. I think you will be amazed how far a root-five will take you. Then there is all that walking stuff and chromatic runs. Fills, yes fills can occupy several years....

Now to improve your groove. Play with others, if not live others then play-a-longs and recording.
How to improvise better grooves, i.e. how to turn a basic I IV V progression into something a little more. Scott has several how to videos listed on this forums. See what you can learn from them.

Good luck.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Duce-hands

my ear is very raw and even after weeks with a piece I'm unable to pick it up by ear.

If you mean this literally, You just identified a pretty significant limitation. If it's too hard for you, take it as a sign that that's worth working on.

I'm more of a groove type player and would rather improv over tune and expand on the groove but at a lost for how to do it. Any suggestions?

Expecting to be able to do this when you can't pick up a tune by ear is unrealistic.

There is a common modern delusion that learning bass works like this:
1.) learn technique, theory, scales and Modes
2.) improvise cool grooves under songs/chords

but the reality is this:
1.) learn technique, theory, scales and Modes
2.) Learn lots of existing basslines/riffs/phrases in many styles
3.) apply what you know about technique, theory, scales and Modes to understand how those bass lines support the rhythm and harmony of the song , and abstract/generalize the ideas in use so they can be applied in new situations. Add these ides to your toolbox. (this is why transcribing is so useful.)
4.) use your toolbox to improvise cool grooves under songs/chords.

note that these steps don't have to happen in order, they really all take place at the same time.

I see a lot of beginners fail at #2, myself included. I certainly wish I had spent more time early on learning existing bass lines instead of trying to find shortcuts to creativity.

In other words, You learn how to creatively apply technique, theory, scales and Modes by studying how it's been done by others and absorbing what you learn to form your own voice.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Expecting to be able to do this when you can't pick up a tune by ear is unrealistic.

There is a common modern delusion that learning bass works like this:
1.) learn technique, theory, scales and Modes
2.) improvise cool grooves under songs/chords

but the reality is this:
1.) learn technique, theory, scales and Modes
2.) Learn lots of existing basslines/riffs/phrases in many styles
3.) apply what you know about technique, theory, scales and Modes to understand how those bass lines support the rhythm and harmony of the song , and abstract/generalize the ideas in use so they can be applied in new situations. Add these ides to your toolbox. (this is why transcribing is so useful.)
4.) use your toolbox to improves cool grooves under songs/chords.

note that these steps don't have to happen in order, they really all take place at the same time.

+100

Really understanding what it is you're doing is very important because it takes a lot of the trial-and-error and guess work out of playing.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Duce-hands

Thanks for the info. Can you give me an example to reference "thinking on my toes". I'm really at a lose at this point. Right now I'm jamming weekly with an experience drummer and it's basically just improvisation around a genre. I guess my question is I know my western scales and modes and the basic appreggios but applying them beyond a basic groove is where I get lost. I'm struggling with applying the technical to the practical. And I haven't given up on transcribing I'm just not very good at it.

That's a good question and one I'm not sure I can answer all that well, so I'll try to answer it with a question so that you can better apply it to your particular situation and figure out where you stand on your knowledge of theory and your ability to apply it.

Let's say you're meeting up with a jazz trio for the first time. The pianist and drummer recently lost their bassist so they're looking to find a replacement. They play a lot of standards, but like most jazz bands their songs are open to on-the-fly improvisation. My question is this:

Given your knowledge of theory, do you think the pianist could yell out a key and chord progression and you could follow along perfectly fine and not have to stick to the root note of each chord? Likewise, could you catch his changes if he were to modulate and change the progression? And furthermore, would you be knowledgeable enough to change the progression and take it in a direction you'd like to go in without missing a beat, flubbing a note, moving out of key (unless it was intentional) or anything like that?

I know I personally once thought I knew theory because I could do all my scales, arpeggios, and all that jazz on my own, but as soon as I was thrown in a band setting I was always stuck on the root. And the times where I could move off from the root I wouldn't sound musical. Sure the notes were in key, but it sounded very forced and awkward.

It turned out that I didn't really understand the theory even though I 'knew' it. It's sort of the same thing with going to school and learning something. Have you really gained knowledge and understanding of a subject or have you just memorized some definitions and patterns? Hopefully that makes sense. Think about it it terms of your playing and see what your answer is.

[lowstrung5]

If you're having trouble playing by ear, I suggest more ear training and practice with play alongs. Find a song you like and try to play it note for note. Start with easy stuff and move on. I've seen many players who have technical expertise and knowledge in theory and scales, arpegios,etc.
When it comes to the rubber meeting the road, they are caught up so much in their head and not translating it to their playing. Jamming with a drummer is fine but to develop more of a melodic sensibility you need to be playing in some sort of harmonic context with a melody or harmony to see how your playing fits in. Listen again to a recording and after mastering what the bassist is doing, try playing the melody. It's about trying to hear how it all fits together. Try to record yourself and hear what works and what does'nt. Sit back to back with another musician and have him or her play something......or sing something to you. Now try to play it back to them. Anything that gets you fluent to be able to hear what to play.....and play what you hear.
Sorry for the rambling........

[PDGood]

My advice would be to contact talkbasser Roy Vogt. He's the best teacher I've met at getting you from where you are to where you want to be. I know that he has DVDs and that he also teaches in person, so I'd imagine he could also do an online thing. He not only knows the theory, he knows how to apply it - and more importantly, how to teach it.

I heard a jazz player once describe what he played this way:
First I plays the melody.
Then I plays around the melody.
Then I routines.

Grammar aside, you get the idea. Each time around you get further from the straight melody. Of course this assumes that (1) you have already developed the knowledge to do this and (2) that you're playing music that allows for this much freedom - often jazz. In other, more common, bar band situations you may only get one solo a night. I usually get handed a funky song in E. Obviously the situation dictates what is appropriate.

[JimiLL]

Originally Posted by Marty Forrer

If you're a rock/pop/blues/country/Irish/Latin player, or aspire to be, then learning modes, scales and gobs of theory is something to aim for later down the track. The most important thing a beginner can do is learn basslines by working them out from listening to CDs, Youtube etc. Learn your pentatonic scale..... it's all you'll need. When I picked up a bass guitar in 1962 at the age of 15 I knew nothing about music. I picked a record (in this instance Walk Dont Run by the Ventures) and played the grooves off that vinyl 45 learning where to put my fingers to copy the bassline. When I had learnt that I went on to another and so on. After a few months I knew enough songs to get a job playing bass in a working covers band. In 18 months I was in a full professional band RUMBLE & BANG TRAILER - YouTube
At this stage I knew the notes on the fingerboard but knew not one single scale, mode, any harmony, nothing. I was 41 before I decided to go to music school and get some education.
My point is that learning songs will get any beginner up and running WAY quicker than learning theory and harmony. Learn a repetoire first.... THEN learn theory and harmony.

I like this... one reason that people dont stay with music when they are taught academically is because it is just dull as dust. I didnt care one ounce for theory until my chops got to the point where I was looking for something else to hold my attention.

[Spaldo]

Modal study never ends.....

I've been studying these for the last few years

Indian Classical Music: Tuning and Ragas

[GeoffT]

Originally Posted by Marty Forrer

If you're a rock/pop/blues/country/Irish/Latin player, or aspire to be, then learning modes, scales and gobs of theory is something to aim for later down the track. The most important thing a beginner can do is learn basslines by working them out from listening to CDs, Youtube etc. Learn your pentatonic scale..... it's all you'll need. When I picked up a bass guitar in 1962 at the age of 15 I knew nothing about music. I picked a record (in this instance Walk Dont Run by the Ventures) and played the grooves off that vinyl 45 learning where to put my fingers to copy the bassline. When I had learnt that I went on to another and so on. After a few months I knew enough songs to get a job playing bass in a working covers band. In 18 months I was in a full professional band RUMBLE & BANG TRAILER - YouTube
At this stage I knew the notes on the fingerboard but knew not one single scale, mode, any harmony, nothing. I was 41 before I decided to go to music school and get some education.
My point is that learning songs will get any beginner up and running WAY quicker than learning theory and harmony. Learn a repetoire first.... THEN learn theory and harmony.

This is also the exact same process that EVERY child uses to learn how to speak their language and barring any physical or mental limitations is just about 100% effective, due in part to their tenacity to stick with it until they learn it. Mimic those around them and repeat what they've learned as often and to as many people as possible. Repeat and build upon those things to develop more complex phrases and eventually sentences. They all have used the language very successfully for a number of YEARS before they are introduced to things like nouns and adjectives, subjects and predicates, and in-depth vocabulary study.