whole tone scale

[richardgk]

in what situation would a whole tone scale be useful? As far as I understand it there is no tonal center for the scale, so how could it be used over chords?

[jweiss]

Used in jazz a good amount for improvisation.

It works well over specific altered 7th chords such as 7#5.

Can also be used over any dominant 7th chord where you want to sound a bit out.

Does not work well over 7b9 due to the natural 9.

The second half of the scale is same as the altered dominant scale, so it can be used in places where you would use the altered dominant scale if you avoid the natural 2/9.

Easy to finger on bass/guitar, lends itself to digital patterns.

Since there are only two unique whole tone scales, it is easy to switch between them when 7th chords move up a 4th / down a 5th.

I like to use whole tone sparingly on the bridge of rhythm changes.

[jweiss]

Works well over these 7th chords:

7#5, 7b5, 9, 9#5, 9b5, 7#5(#11).

[Entzel]

Originally Posted by jweiss

Since there are only two unique whole tone scales, it is easy to switch between them when 7th chords move up a 4th / down a 5th.

I think that just blew my mind. Thats a tad dramatic, but I've honestly never heard that before. I feel I should have picked this up, even after only a semester of playing jazz!

So what you are saying is that the two unique WT scales are built off of the 1st and 4th scale degree in any key. (that is: the two are built starting on the 1st and 4th scale degrees).

Thats kinda neat.

Thanks for enlightening me!

[jweiss]

Originally Posted by Entzel

So what you are saying is that the two unique WT scales are built off of the 1st and 4th scale degree in any key. (that is: the two are built starting on the 1st and 4th scale degrees).

Thats kinda neat.

Thanks for enlightening me!

Yep.

Another way to approach it - if you are playing whole tone scale over dominant seventh chords that move up a fourth or down a fifth - just take whatever lick/pattern you just played and move it up or down a half step and you will now be playing in the whole tone scale for the next 7th chord

[JoZac21]

Ooo... don't forget dom.13 chords... like butter.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by jweiss

I like to use whole tone sparingly on the bridge of rhythm changes.

i would have stopped after "sparingly"

i personally prefer not to bog myself down with thinking about scales and consciously working them into my playing. too limiting. fun as an academic exercise, not fun as music. i'd rather just see the chords and make up my own mind what notes to use rather than force scales into it.

just an alternate viewpoint here. feel free to regard or disregard...but my favorite solo bassists never sound like they're playing scales, so...

[jweiss]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i would have stopped after "sparingly"

i personally prefer not to bog myself down with thinking about scales and consciously working them into my playing. too limiting. fun as an academic exercise, not fun as music. i'd rather just see the chords and make up my own mind what notes to use rather than force scales into it.

just an alternate viewpoint here. feel free to regard or disregard...but my favorite solo bassists never sound like they're playing scales, so...

I understand your concerns, but scales are chord tones

You have made several assumptions about how I might apply the whole tone scale.

It's all about how you use them.

whole tone over 7#5:

1 9 3 #11 #5 7

[jweiss]

Originally Posted by JoZac21

Ooo... don't forget dom.13 chords... like butter.

Yes, absolutely!

[bassandbeyond]

Originally Posted by JoZac21

Ooo... don't forget dom.13 chords... like butter.

Don't you mean b13 chords? The natural 13 tends to clash with the #5 in the whole tone scale, so if I want a more "colorful" sound on a 13 chord, I'll usually play dominant-diminished or lydian b7.

The easiest way to use a whole tone scale musically, for me, is to play any whole tone lick (e.g. a simple augmented triad), and then move it up or down the neck by whole steps.

[jweiss]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

Don't you mean b13 chords? The natural 13 tends to clash with the #5 in the whole tone scale, so if I want a more "colorful" sound on a 13 chord, I'll usually play dominant-diminished or lydian b7.

Good point.

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

The easiest way to use a whole tone scale musically, for me, is to play any whole tone lick (e.g. a simple augmented triad), and then move it up or down the neck by whole steps.

Yep, works nicely.

Or move up the chord tones!

1-3-#5-3 3-#5-7-#5 #5-7-9-#5 etc.

Another fragment that is very easy to finger on bass or other stringed instruments tuned in 4ths is major 3rd -> major 2nd

e.g.

1-3-#11-3 3-#5-7-#5 #5-1-9-1 etc.

Or turn it around, major 2nd -> major 3rd.

1-9-#11-9 etc.

[anonymous02282011]

Originally Posted by Entzel

I think that just blew my mind. Thats a tad dramatic, but I've honestly never heard that before. I feel I should have picked this up, even after only a semester of playing jazz!

So what you are saying is that the two unique WT scales are built off of the 1st and 4th scale degree in any key. (that is: the two are built starting on the 1st and 4th scale degrees).

Thats kinda neat.

Thanks for enlightening me!

Also, there are really only 3 diminished scales, each within a half-step of one another.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by jweiss

I understand your concerns, but scales are chord tones

You have made several assumptions about how I might apply the whole tone scale.

It's all about how you use them.

whole tone over 7#5:

1 9 3 #11 #5 7

that would sound pretty

didn't mean to cast aspersions...just my way of doing things...ymmv.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

The easiest way to use a whole tone scale musically, for me, is to play any whole tone lick (e.g. a simple augmented triad), and then move it up or down the neck by whole steps.

Robert Fripp called, he wants his idea back.

[bassandbeyond]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Robert Fripp called, he wants his idea back.

That idea goes back long before Fripp's time!