Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

[Rick Robins]

Jeff Berlin "Music, when learned correctly, guarantees that one solves the mystery of their instrument and how to play it. Learning music isn't complicated! But it does take someone that knows the facts so that they can pass them on to their students. A musician's personality has no place in learning music as music just IS! What one does with the information is where one's personality comes into play.
My definition of music academics is the learning of factual elements that make up harmony, melody, and rhythm."

For 5 years I have read commentary by Jeff putting down all the silly things people pay others to teach them or for so they may be better players. Him tell people that TAB will not make you a better musician or a player. That in order to be better, the player must learn factual elements that make up harmony, melody, and rhythm & learn to read & write it in the approved, age old method. Concepts that took place long before any of the voodoo stuff found in mags, videos, DVDs, guitar stores & right here on TB. How did these New Methods come to be?? I really can't grasp why a person takes groove lessons or Rush lessons over just learning the best musical content material that musicians were taught at anytime before maybe say 1980 or before the Beatles or ???. Could anybody explain to me what are the benefits to learning anything other than the good content that leads to a full understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm that will make you a better player (& a good teacher to have)?

[JimiLL]

its true. im starting to notice a little bit of a trend that knowing theory is somewhat looked down upon and Ive also been told by some people that they dont need to know theory, they play "with their feelings"

[JimiLL]

One time I told a guitar player "its a C sharp there", only for him to reply "I dont know any theory" lol

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by Rick Robins

Jeff Berlin "Music, when learned correctly, guarantees that one solves the mystery of their instrument and how to play it. Learning music isn't complicated! But it does take someone that knows the facts so that they can pass them on to their students. A musician's personality has no place in learning music as music just IS! What one does with the information is where one's personality comes into play.
My definition of music academics is the learning of factual elements that make up harmony, melody, and rhythm."

For 5 years I have read commentary by Jeff putting down all the silly things people pay others to teach them or for so they may be better players. Him tell people that TAB will not make you a better musician or a player. That in order to be better, the player must learn factual elements that make up harmony, melody, and rhythm & learn to read & write it in the approved, age old method. Concepts that took place long before any of the voodoo stuff found in mags, videos, DVDs, guitar stores & right here on TB. How did these New Methods come to be?? I really can't grasp why a person takes groove lessons or Rush lessons over just learning the best musical content material that musicians were taught at anytime before maybe say 1980 or before the Beatles or ???. Could anybody explain to me what are the benefits to learning anything other than the good content that leads to a full understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm that will make you a better player (& a good teacher to have)?

I've found there are two types of students: those that want to become better players through study and practice, and those that want to learn songs and duplicate that performance on an instrument. The latter is the larger group, and the mass marketing of magazines and snake-oil DVDs reflects that. Those that have no interest in doing the hard work will gravitate toward things that present an easy path to learning certain songs they like or that one technique they like.

[Russell L]

I'm sick and tired of hearing how theory isn't needed. I'm all for playing with feel, but that has nothing to do with knowing WHAT to play, and understanding what it is, and how it relates to everything else. Feel is simply how you express those things (unless you want to confuse "feeling" with "having an ear"). What's more, theory will help anyone progress---a lot!. It makes me think that those who put down theory are just making an excuse so they don't have to put out any mental effort to learn something.

I don't understand why any musician isn't greatly interested in how music works. Theory explains it all.

[AlmightyPancake]

I honestly feel that much of it has to do with the connotations of "theory."

Many people feel as though "theory" is a set of rules that must be followed, or else you're playing "wrong." It's pretty easy to understand why this misperception exists; just consider the number of teachers who bust your balls when you play something incorrectly, or muss up a scale or chord change. This implies that by learning theory, you're restricting yourself to having to play within very strict confines of "correct" and "incorrect". It doesn't help that there are many musicians who feel strongly that there are definite "rights" and "wrongs" in music.

I didn't embrace theory effectively until I had a fantastic teacher who did a wonderful job of emphasizing that he was giving me a toolkit, not laying down some laws. I also think that there is a period when learning theory (early on) where it does actually hinder your ability to approach your instrument creatively. It's tough to write something when your brain is running a mile a minute, telling you what the "accepted" notes to play at a given time are. Once you grasp theory for what it is, though, it's nothing but useful for any level of musician.

[lowfreq33]

Knowing theory doesn't get in the way of expressing yourself, it helps with it, in the same way that having a good vocabulary can help you be a more expressive writer. The problem is that some people have nothing to say in the first place.

[Marial]

I'm all for learning theory, it was just never a priority. Do I wish I knew theory? Sure! Do I have the time or drive to delve into it at this point in my life? Not really. Has it hurt my playing? Probably, but given that I've been gigging steadily and mostly happily for twenty + years I've never noticed or felt it.

I'm not slagging theory, I'm just pointing out that while it will definitely make you a better musician and will certainly be beneficial, it's not the end of the world for someone, like me, to have missed that particular boat.

[MOTORHEADBANGER]

Originally Posted by AlmightyPancake

I honestly feel that much of it has to do with the connotations of "theory."

Many people feel as though "theory" is a set of rules that must be followed, or else you're playing "wrong." It's pretty easy to understand why this misperception exists; just consider the number of teachers who bust your balls when you play something incorrectly, or muss up a scale or chord change. This implies that by learning theory, you're restricting yourself to having to play within very strict confines of "correct" and "incorrect". It doesn't help that there are many musicians who feel strongly that there are definite "rights" and "wrongs" in music.

I didn't embrace theory effectively until I had a fantastic teacher who did a wonderful job of emphasizing that he was giving me a toolkit, not laying down some laws. I also think that there is a period when learning theory (early on) where it does actually hinder your ability to approach your instrument creatively. It's tough to write something when your brain is running a mile a minute, telling you what the "accepted" notes to play at a given time are. Once you grasp theory for what it is, though, it's nothing but useful for any level of musician.

I agree 100%. I dig the Vic Wooten view that music should be taught like a language. When a child starts learning how to speak and says things differently or "wrongly," we embrace it and take it as a quirk whereas in music when a student plays something wrong from day 1 many scold the student and tell them that it is wrong and how to do it correctly. One needs to explore possibilities and take a few steps before truly learning. You don't learn much of the grammar and rule aspects until later and it makes them easier to grasp.

[baileyboy]

Originally Posted by Marial

I'm all for learning theory, it was just never a priority. Do I wish I knew theory? Sure! Do I have the time or drive to delve into it at this point in my life? Not really. Has it hurt my playing? Probably, but given that I've been gigging steadily and mostly happily for twenty + years I've never noticed or felt it.

I'm not slagging theory, I'm just pointing out that while it will definitely make you a better musician and will certainly be beneficial, it's not the end of the world for someone, like me, to have missed that particular boat.

I like this explanation. While I'm a huge advocate of taking lessons and learning the rudiments of theory, etc. I do not think it is a must for everyone. If you find yourself in a place that pleases you, as Marial has, that is all that matters. Not everyone has to be a master musician.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Rick Robins

Jeff Berlin "Music, when learned correctly, guarantees that one solves the mystery of their instrument and how to play it. Learning music isn't complicated! But it does take someone that knows the facts so that they can pass them on to their students. A musician's personality has no place in learning music as music just IS! What one does with the information is where one's personality comes into play.
My definition of music academics is the learning of factual elements that make up harmony, melody, and rhythm."

For 5 years I have read commentary by Jeff putting down all the silly things people pay others to teach them or for so they may be better players. Him tell people that TAB will not make you a better musician or a player. That in order to be better, the player must learn factual elements that make up harmony, melody, and rhythm & learn to read & write it in the approved, age old method. Concepts that took place long before any of the voodoo stuff found in mags, videos, DVDs, guitar stores & right here on TB. How did these New Methods come to be?? I really can't grasp why a person takes groove lessons or Rush lessons over just learning the best musical content material that musicians were taught at anytime before maybe say 1980 or before the Beatles or ???. Could anybody explain to me what are the benefits to learning anything other than the good content that leads to a full understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm that will make you a better player (& a good teacher to have)?

Quite simple....it's a focus........ on what matters to an individual.
If music academics is your focus then that is a different focus to playing.
If learning how to groove is about feeling then music academics is not going to teach you that, a performance lesson is needed, so therefore a performance lesson is needed. If that makes the player a better player in their own eyes then that is what matters.
It's an each to their own thing, not everybody needs or requires to make the most of what they have, or to be the best, or to to even make the effort to try.
I mean is your body the best it can be? Is it toned, is it lean, do you train it and exercise it, do you watch your diet and what you drink, do you live in a healthy area etc
To those whose focus is in of fitness they will raise the same questions about diet plans or a fitness craze, the same sort of points you raise about certain aspects of music, but a different focus.

Is your car the best it can be? Is your job the best it can be etc etc.
To each and every subject there are extremes of what can and what needs to be achieved.....some are happy with the lesser aspects of music so let them be........ we cannot miss what we never had, and the fact is a student is not qualified to make decisions on what they should and should not learn.

[Pedulla?]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

Knowing theory doesn't get in the way of expressing yourself, it helps with it, in the same way that having a good vocabulary can help you be a more expressive writer. The problem is that some people have nothing to say in the first place.

+1000000000

[Snarf]

I just want to add one more thing: Those of us that teach and get frustrated by the students that don't want to put the effort into really studying music could definitely learn to manage our expectations. I will do my best to articulate what a student stands to gain if he/she studies deeper than just the mechanical motions needed to learn a cover song. But in the end, I don't have enough students to pick and choose them, so if someone is willing to pay me to teach Metallica and Red Hot Chili Peppers songs, it is not beneath me to do so. Of course, I'm trying to make a living on this. Those that teach and have another main job, can afford to be as snooty as they want.

[CrewsControl]

My teacher is focusing almost exclusively on theory, and how it applies to creating bass lines. Yet he got me playing along with him on guitar the very first lesson. We play music a lot in my private lessons, but I don't learn any songs, and he even seems to neglect technique. I asked him about that and he said technique comes with lots of playing, and as long as I am not getting into bad habits he's not going to hammer my technique.

As for learning songs, well, that's what the group garage band class is for: learning to play a setlist with other students. I'm even learning to sing backup or lead while playing.

I had 3 years as a young boy in the Texas Boys' Choir, and 6 years in junior high and high school band playing euphonium. Made 3rd chair out of four in All-State High School band my senior year. Yet 30 years later, last November, was the first time I had laid eyes on the Circle of Fifths diagram. What an eye-opener that was!

[Rick Robins]

Originally Posted by Snarf

I just want to add one more thing: Those of us that teach and get frustrated by the students that don't want to put the effort into really studying music could definitely learn to manage our expectations. I will do my best to articulate what a student stands to gain if he/she studies deeper than just the mechanical motions needed to learn a cover song. But in the end, I don't have enough students to pick and choose them, so if someone is willing to pay me to teach Metallica and Red Hot Chili Peppers songs, it is not beneath me to do so. Of course, I'm trying to make a living on this. Those that teach and have another main job, can afford to be as snooty as they want.

Snarf, First off I don't want to change the subject but you are not the first teacher I have heard tell this story. One of my best friends put himself through college teaching just as you explain. At the time (1980's 1990's) he didn't' really get any students that wanted to learn music or add further instruction to their college music education from one of the two in the area. Students like that who wanted further instruction instead would drive two hours to NYC & pay the going rate for those lessons. He would constantly complain about what he would have to ear out for them & then show them. I used to ask him, Wouldn't you rather up your quality and be paid better with less students rather than keep your quantity high, work longer & be paid less?

[portlandguy]

I was jaming with a guy that I worked with in his basement, we got set up and I asked him what we were going to play and he said just jamin, I asked what chords or key? and he said that he did not play in chords or keys because it restricted his style.

[Staccato]

Are we talking about a hobby, or a field of study?

It's always fun to categorize people, or overgeneralize people isn't it? Some stay in group A. Others move into group B sooner, or later...there's all kinds of so-called musicians.

Group A.
These players are going to pick up a bass, and make some noise. They have limited time, or interest in theory. They may have a good ear, or other talents that help feed the results.

Group B.
Others enter the 'music' knowlege base by reading, and develop a good, or very good understanding of what makes up music theory. This group will usually not settle for skirting the edges of a topic that they want to take seriously, and once committed-they jump in with both feet.

[basszoned]

It really boils down to this:

Not knowing theory limits your gig opportunities.
If one is content doing what they do and they are having fun doing it, that's great.

But, if one wants to be the player that gets the first call in your area over the other gents, then knowledge is power..and the studying never stops.

(Plus, I've done gigs where the band leader likes to throw things out on the fly like, "ok, we are doing "this tune" in "four flats tonight instead" ....or throws out chords like "ok, major 7, add 9 sharp 11, go " .... you don't want to be the guy that says " huh..what does that mean?...it will be the last time that bandleader will call you or recommend you)

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by Rick Robins

Snarf, First off I don't want to change the subject but you are not the first teacher I have heard tell this story. One of my best friends put himself through college teaching just as you explain. At the time (1980's 1990's) he didn't' really get any students that wanted to learn music or add further instruction to their college music education from one of the two in the area. Students like that who wanted further instruction instead would drive two hours to NYC & pay the going rate for those lessons. He would constantly complain about what he would have to ear out for them & then show them. I used to ask him, Wouldn't you rather up your quality and be paid better with less students rather than keep your quantity high, work longer & be paid less?

It's not the 80's and 90's anymore unfortunately. People don't have money and aren't going to pay $60-80 for a lesson with someone that isn't a name. My name doesn't command enough money yet to get better students (working on that). I actually don't have ANY students at the moment because I'm trying to find an apartment and move to NYC. Yes earing out stuff for students is a huge pain (especially when I had to teach a lot of Zappa when I worked for School Of Rock), but it beats working at a call center (which I've done).

[Calaverasgrande]

In the community I grew up in there were quite a lot of musicians that were phenomenal players, but did not know theory as you or I understand it. They may have been able to get around on their axes quite well but had kind of a problem trying to communicate what their intentions were outside of just playing it. This isn't a problem when you only ever jam with people that are from the same background who grew up jamming with you. But you get outside of your safety zone and it is very nice to be able to yell "it's a flatted 5th not a 6th!" or whatevers.
However I can't overlook that all of these guys could pretty much bury any of us, any day of the week, with sheer technique. Woodshedding and jamming with other people is where it is at.