Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by robertusf

So, where does one start, after playing years and years by ear? I have gotten by pretty well playing by ear. But, I do know, all too well, how much I am limited by lack of theory. Two of my bandmates go into "music speak" and sometimes i get lost in the terminology.

Again, where does an intermediate ear player begin? Suggestions?

****EDIT***** *I know my major/minor scales but start to lose it in chord structure,etc

First off i take you will do this on your own because the best way is to get a teacher, but I would apply what you do know out your theory and expand it from there. Take all the songs you know, analyze them and see why they work with what you know. Before you move on and introduce and learn new ideas you really should fully understand what you do know, because that will show you what you don't know and that will be what you learn....a sort of fill in the blanks approach.

Now when you say chord structure to you mean as a whole, or the first part of chord structure which is chord construction? There are four groups of chords
Major, minor, augmented and diminished into which commonly go all degrees of the chromatic scale,so that is 11 notes as roots, so 11 versions of each four standard chord groups.
These groups can all be defined with three notes in the form of a triad, the simplest of chords, so that is 4 x 11 which is 44 basic triads you should know and be able to identify.
Each triad has 6 permutations or inversions so that is now 6 x 44 which is 264 different uses of just those four chord groups as triads.
Sounds a lot, but it can be all learned as the original four groups then expand it.....if need be to as much as you want.

I can count to a million if I want to, but never have done, but what I have done is write out large numbers, or do large calculations, which I can do, because I know how to construct and order the numbers, because I learned units, tens, hundreds, thousands....four groups that will let me expand what I know and learned for when I need it.

So to the four groups you now add the most common of extentions the 7th, now the triad can be seen as an arpeggio, so now that is now another 18 rather than 6 inversions we had.....and so on.

Again it was just the addition of one new learned element that increases the amount of original information that can be applied. That's why it is important to order what you know and learn in sequence to have that solid foundation to build on, which means each new piece of information added, no matter how small or irrelevant it may seem, will expand and increase what you know and can apply.

All this information from four groups expanded and all you have to do is learn the basic construction of each chord group which is root, triad, arpeggio, 7th, 11th, 13th, diminished, augmented then add the new group Dominant 7 to the thinking and it all expands again.
Then new extentions like suspended (sus), sharp5, flat5, 6ths etc can all be added and built on what you learn because you have the correct foundation to do so.

Because of the way a standard bass is tuned in 4ths this means that this info will have shapes and patterns that transfer around the fretboard. So the shape of a C Major triad is the same for all 11 degrees, as is the shape for minor, diminished, augmented, 7ths etc.
It can all be learned and understood on just one note if need be, then expanded because the construction will be the same, just the root will be different.
After construction, it is application, interaction, functionality to melody and harmony etc and that is a different set of lessons and thinking.
But as far as construction goes its four basic groups that have sub sets that then expand in to five groups and sub sets. A few days to a week will see construction learned then you can move on and let it support other ideas.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Now when you say chord structure to you mean as a whole, or the first part of chord structure which is chord construction? There are four groups of chords
Major, minor, augmented and diminished into which commonly go all degrees of the chromatic scale,so that is 11 notes as roots, so 11 versions of each four standard chord groups.
These groups can all be defined with three notes in the form of a triad, the simplest of chords, so that is 4 x 11 which is 44 basic triads you should know and be able to identify.
Each triad has 6 permutations or inversions so that is now 6 x 44 which is 264 different uses of just those four chord groups as triads.
Sounds a lot, but it can be all learned as the original four groups then expand it.....if need be to as much as you want.

I can count to a million if I want to, but never have done, but what I have done is write out large numbers, or do large calculations, which I can do, because I know how to construct and order the numbers, because I learned units, tens, hundreds, thousands....four groups that will let me expand what I know and learned for when I need it.

So to the four groups you now add the most common of extentions the 7th, now the triad can be seen as an arpeggio, so now that is now another 18 rather than 6 inversions we had.....and so on.

If you only have 3 notes ... you have only 3 inversions. Chord start on the root, on the 3rd and on the 5th ... 3 inversions in major + minor + diminish + augmented = 12 inversions.

[BobaFret]

Anthony Wellington summed it up nicely for me without using ANY terms of theory. It's a logical relationship.

I've fallen into all these except the final stage. I'm working on it.

Anthony Wellington "Four Levels of Awareness" for a musician. From Victor Wooten:Groove Workshop - YouTube


FIND THE BLISSFUL STATE

[gnjpowell]

Music theory is also a language. If you don't "speak the same language" it's difficult to communicate effectively - or at all. Even if you lean and play "by ear" 100% you still need some basic theory to communicate well.

[Russell L]

What painter does not know how to mix primary colors to get other colors? It's the same thing. It never hurts any to understand some fundamentals. He may discover other colors by accident, but it's for sure he could've discovered them sooner by knowing what to do.

Music theory is not something that will destroy creativity. Nor is it something to be proud about. It's just knowledge. Not knowing any of it is nothing to boast about either. It sure is nice to have a conversation with someone else who understands theory. Things at practice move along a lot faster and smoother that way.

Those who say they play only by ear and feeling know some theory, or else they wouldn't be able to play. Just being able to play at all means one knows what to do, whether they know what to call it or not. Why not learn what to call it so you can relate it to others who understand? I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to do that.

[bassmeknik]

Originally Posted by gnjpowell

Music theory is also a language. If you don't "speak the same language" it's difficult to communicate effectively - or at all. Even if you lean and play "by ear" 100% you still need some basic theory to communicate well.

I totally agree with this.

I am not very familiar with Jeff Berlin, however I do not agree that learning tab won't make you a better bassist. Tab is just another way of writing music on the printed page, and the more musical languages you are proficient at the more valuable you will be as a bassist. Tab may not make you play better but it will make you more money as it allow you to communicate better with fellow musicians therefore allowing you more employment opportunities. IMO that makes you a better musician overall.

I did not learn tab till 20 years after learning the piano, trumpet, guitar, and then the bass. I believe tab is very valuable to know as a guitarist or bassist.

[bassybill]

bassmeknik - interesting comments on tab. I don't tend to use it much myself. I can see some use for it in some circumstances, although it's not really a proper substitute for notation in my opinion.

My own experiences are very different as regards the "employment opportunites", too. In over thirty years of playing paid gigs, I never did one that required me to read tab. Anyone else?

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

If you only have 3 notes ... you have only 3 inversions. Chord start on the root, on the 3rd and on the 5th ... 3 inversions in major + minor + diminish + augmented = 12 inversions.

Last time I done Maths permatations of 3 = 6 so for C triad that gives me

CEG -CGE -EGC -ECG -GCE -GEC

So with major + minor + diminish + augmented = 24 permutation or inversions....But maybe it because I am using metric LOL

Like i I said

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Each triad has 6 permutations or inversions

Maybe I should have said "permutations including inversions"
"permutations with inversions" , but if it caused anyone any confusion I apologise.
It was not a point on inversions, but to show how a simple idea can be expanded from one premise to make learning easier.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by bassybill

bassmeknik - interesting comments on tab. I don't tend to use it much myself. I can see some use for it in some circumstances, although it's not really a proper substitute for notation in my opinion.

My own experiences are very different as regards the "employment opportunites", too. In over thirty years of playing paid gigs, I never did one that required me to read tab. Anyone else?

Never had a tab either in 40+ years....don't even remember them being an option to learn either. But as I have said in the past, learning and knowledge is about representation. Tab is tool that represents what we know which is numbers, and assuming we can count then we can use it. So it is not like learning SN which is a whole new concept, tab expands a concept we already know and have used since childhood, so we are comfortable with it...it is familiar representation of information.
If you sit an exam to test what you have learned it is only a test of what you can explain in words in a satisfactory way for the exam board or examiner to pass or fail you. It is not about what you know but only what you can represent in words.

I'm sure we have all at some point we have all said in our lives " it's hard to explain let me show you", or just " it's hard to explain" That does not mean you do not know the subject or point, it just means you cannot represent it in words.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Last time I done Maths permatations of 3 = 6 so for C triad that gives me

CEG -CGE -EGC -ECG -GCE -GEC

So with major + minor + diminish + augmented = 24 permutation or inversions....But maybe it because I am using metric LOL

Like i I said


Maybe I should have said "permutations including inversions"
"permutations with inversions" , but if it caused anyone any confusion I apologise.
It was not a point on inversions, but to show how a simple idea can be expanded from one premise to make learning easier.

Ah ! now it makes more sense ! Thank for the clarification

[gnjpowell]

Tab helps because it reduces the number of "lookups" yer brain needs to do to translate written information on a page into where to place your finger and what string to hit to get the target note. With tab you have a direct pointer to the target string and fret, no "brain loook-ups" or conversions needed. With standard notation yer brain has to perform several look-ups and conversions for every note. The dot on the staff needs to be converted into the correct note (A, A#, Bb, etc) and then your brain must perform another look-up and conversion to find the correct string to hit and the correct fret for the target note, a LOT more for the brain to do all at one time. Easy for Pros, not so easy for the beginner or hacker like myself. Unfortunately tab tells you nothing really about tempo or timing.

[gmahoog]

Great explanation.

Oh yeah, and then there are different fingerings for each inversion.

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Last time I done Maths permatations of 3 = 6 so for C triad that gives me

CEG -CGE -EGC -ECG -GCE -GEC

So with major + minor + diminish + augmented = 24 permutation or inversions....But maybe it because I am using metric LOL

Like i I said


Maybe I should have said "permutations including inversions"
"permutations with inversions" , but if it caused anyone any confusion I apologise.
It was not a point on inversions, but to show how a simple idea can be expanded from one premise to make learning easier.

[pointbass]

I generally try to stay out of these discussions since they tend to bogged down by oppposing sides trying to force their own issues, but this has been a fairly decent discussion thus far.

In life, there are differing levels of need and desire. Some folks want to be fabulously wealthy and work dilligently towards that goal, while others may wish they were fabulously wealthy but are unwilling to do the work to achieve that level of success. On point, there are musicians that want to be at the top of their field and others that don't have the desire to put in the time to be the best. That doesn't make any one group wrong or right .... it just is what it is on your on specific level.

I started studying music when I was 8 years old. The language of music is 2nd nature to me since I learned to speak it along with English. As a younger guy, it took me a while to realize that others weren't fluent in the language of music, but because I was young and stupid I never connected the right dots .... lots of people aren't fluent in their own language (whatever it may be), so why would I assume that they'd be able to converse musically just because they held an instrument in their hands?

Mr. Berlin takes a somewhat hard line regarding fluency. He expects that a player will be capable of speaking the language of music. But, if you can't then you shouldn't even be listening to him. Why argue? Mr. Berlin isn't wrong at all and he has firm beliefs, but those beliefs will not apply to everyone. This is the reason the "snake oil" instructors exist, to pick up the slack with those left out of the purist side of the discussion.

There is a lot a good instructor can do for a student, but both sides have to be very careful that they have common goals. In my case I will not teach brand new beginning bassists, nor will I teach anyone who simply wants to learn to bang out roots in drop D tuning. That doesn't make me a bad guy, nor does it make the student a bad person, either. It simply isn't a good match.

Mr. Berlin is a superior player and a highly educated musician. It would be foolish to downplay his considerable achievements. However, IMO only, I think it's foolish of Mr Berlin to downplay those musicians whose desire for advancement don't match his .... as stated above by an earlier poster, this is what people remember ... the negativity.

Everyone marches to their own beat and we'd all be a bit better off if we stopped trying to change the cadence to match our own ....

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

Ah ! now it makes more sense ! Thank for the clarification

No probs, the web sometimes does not always convey the written word well, as it is open to interpretation from the readers experience as well as the writers intentions.

[wyattharris]

In my *guitar* playing, i use almost no theory. I just hear melodies or chords in my head and i can play them. It is a melody oriented instrument, so i can get away with that in many settings. (I do know all the notes and such)...

Bass, on the other hand, requires me to really learn the "language". To play with others, i need good reading ability as well as a lot of chord/scale knowledge.

Both have their place, i suppose.

[Rick Robins]

It's nice to see some on topic commentary
@ Pointbass. I don't know if you have caught the other thread going on here. Seems two of us started sharing Jeff's commentary here on TB at the same time.
An interesting read from Jeff Berlin
I think you may have missed some of Jeff's statements in regard to the different type of players/students , the varied semantics of & how he addressed them.
Jeff's primary commentary revolves around music lessons that are paid for.

""When somebody pays for a lesson then they ought to get some solid musical return for their investment. It really amazes me how many players just don't understand what a music lesson is about.

Then he asks after some question him:

""Could anybody explain to me what are the benefits to learning anything other than the good content that leads to a full understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm that will make you a better player?""

“Here is a clear statement! Teachers that don't teach you music aren't teaching you anything worthy of your tuition. Teachers that don't assign homework of a purely academic type don't know enough about music to give this information to you. If you spend money anywhere, for any reason, to anybody, and you do not received academic musical content to help you to improve, you have thrown your money away. This is as clear as I can get! “””

[Russell L]

I use my theory knowledge on any instrument I play. But, a nice place to get to with it is when you can just play without having to think about it. It's like you have to know it really well, and then can sorta forget about it. Yet, when needed you can pull it up. It's similar to understanding the golf swing so well that when you walk up and address the ball you don't have too many swing thoughts all at once to confound you. It's one of those things you can't MAKE happen. You must LET it happen, and then when you do it you do it well because you do have that knowledge.

Weird.

[Rick Robins]

Originally Posted by bassmeknik

I totally agree with this.

I am not very familiar with Jeff Berlin, however I do not agree that learning tab won't make you a better bassist. Tab is just another way of writing music on the printed page, and the more musical languages you are proficient at the more valuable you will be as a bassist. Tab may not make you play better but it will make you more money as it allow you to communicate better with fellow musicians therefore allowing you more employment opportunities. IMO that makes you a better musician overall.

I did not learn tab till 20 years after learning the piano, trumpet, guitar, and then the bass. I believe tab is very valuable to know as a guitarist or bassist.

This all sounds great on paper but it is one of the biggest gripes I have. I find TAB awful. I have come in contact with tons of guys who could play, shred do all the tricks & flash, but by learning from tab & never leaving I found them to be absolutely useless, non creative players. Specifically in on the spot situations.

[bassmeknik]

Originally Posted by bassybill

My own experiences are very different as regards the "employment opportunites", too. In over thirty years of playing paid gigs, I never did one that required me to read tab. Anyone else?

It has never been a requirement for me to get hired but I have been given tab and asked to learn the song, though usually I started learning it with tab and finished learning by ear. After 45 years as a performer I typically learn by ear faster than tab or from the "5 line" staff. So I guess I haven't had more employment opportunities but have found my knowledge of tab very useful over the years.

In response to the poster that said he had seen a lot of poorly written/inaccurate tab, ME TWO. Remember that tab is often used (and written) more by people that can't read music conventionally so there is more inaccurate tab than conventional 5 line. As I play in pop rock groups that seems to be where tab flourishes. In my praise band I get more 5 line than tab so from my experience I think tab is much more common in the pop music genre.

[bassmeknik]

I am sitting at home tonight cramming 30 new songs for my recent/new pop rock band that has its first performance this coming Saturday night. Primarily I am playing along with the recording, mostly from you tube. They gave me a list and a CD with some of the songs on it and the rest comes from you tube. I find most of the songs I can learn most of in two or three listens, while the more complicated songs take a few more times through. Back to practice...