Why do a lot of bands tune to E flat?

[SUPERMAG]

Good thread. Learned a lot. And got lost a lot.
But feel I understand things better.
Does anyone tune down a half step ,and not have any issues on a short scale. ???
I get some unwanted sounds from the lower tension
Just. Curious. Not meaning to take away from the original post.
My Short scale has low String tension anyway. The strings are easy to bend anyway. And I'm the singer that has always sung in standard E or however you say it.
We didn't have to tune down to match my voice. Just played in another key. So guess I sing in.A High register ? Or ,again. , however you wanna say it.
I'm a hillbilly. What do I know.
But I have enjoyed the conversation. Lots of smart folks on here. Hope y'all can answer my question too

[Thankful birds]

There's another interesting reason for tuning down a whole step that rarely comes up in the modern day of protools. It used to be that recording engineers would have a band tune down slightly to allow the tape to be sped up just slightly in the final mix. The intended effect was to get a little more cohesion and to slightly clean up the mix, and to make the singers sound a little younger. Plus, if everyone learns the song a little slower and a little lower, it's easier to sing and play.

Check out the Beatles "She Loves You" live on Ed Sullivan in 1964-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMA2p...eature=related

vs. the studio recording-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YifXhm-Zc

The technique was called "varispeed," and was used by everyone from the Beatles to the Beach Biys, etc. It's also what created those "Alvin and the Chipmunk" records from the early 60's.

[phayes1007]

Originally Posted by kr0n

Yeah, I felt disgusted after a sentence on that page. Wish people had half a brain instead of trusting every source online...

This guy actually thinks second is an universal unit of time...

+1
I clinked on the link, too. My initial reaction to it... "Oooo! pretty webpage design--impressive-looking! think I'll start reading..."

15 seconds later... "THIS GUY IS A FRUITCAKE!!!"

hahaha what a clown.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by phayes1007

+1
I clinked on the link, too. My initial reaction to it... "Oooo! pretty webpage design--impressive-looking! think I'll start reading..."

15 seconds later... "THIS GUY IS A FRUITCAKE!!!"

hahaha what a clown.

That site is one of the most halfwitted examples of pseudo-scientific claptrap that I have ever seen (not that there's any sort of shortage).

I'll never understand how it's possible for some people to actually believe such stuff. And I don't see why it was considered worth bumping a thread that had been dormant for five years just to post a link to that...

[Hulktopus]

Originally Posted by Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

here's the long explanation...
...Hope this helps.

The long explanation helped more than the short one for me. Thanks to all for this wealth of knowledge. I learn SOOOOO much from discussions like this.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by kanonfodr

I'm sorry, but I can't quite follow that. Pitch is assigned to a frequency: A4 (what most modern music uses for it's standard for tuning) is 440 hz, Middle C (C4) is 261 hz, and every other note has frequency that humans have assigned it to (NOTE: A5 corrected to A4 - Bill.)

Moving away a bit from the original question and back to the confusion about transposing instruments...

It helps to be clear about the concept of CONCERT PITCH, based on A440, when trying to understand transposing instruments. Let's just consider a Bb transposing instrument to start.

261 Hz (approx) = middle C concert. Playing middle C on a non-transposing instrument will get you this note. But playing a C on a Bb transposing instrument will give you Bb concert (that's what "Bb transposing instrument" means). To get a C concert, you'd need to play a tone higher, which on the transposing instrument would be a D. Get it?

Playing a C on an Eb transposing instrument will give you Eb concert (by definition). To get a C, you'd need to... well, you can work the rest out, I'm sure.

The point is, it is not the simple truth to say 440 Hz = A always, 261 Hz = C always and so on. That is true when you're referring to non-transposing instruments, but for transposing Eb and Bb instruments (and a variety of others), an A is not 440 Hz and a C is not 261 Hz.

It is, however, correct to say A concert = 440 Hz and middle C concert = 261 Hz. The word concert removes the ambiguity about what sort of instrument you're referring to, and should very often be taken as implied when it is omitted. This would work in the above quote, for example.

... A4 concert (what most modern music uses for its standard for tuning) is 440 hz, Middle C concert (C4) is 261 hz...

[I've mostly left the octave reference numbers out in this reply, just to make the concept a bit clearer. ]

[VitalSigns]

This is confusing. Why not just let notes be notes without throwing math into it?

[Fishheadjoe]

My band plays tuned down a semi-tone as requested by our singer. I don't know if it's real or a preceived benefit to him, but if it helps his performance, it's no real biggie.
I honestly prefer the string tension of A-440, but you do what you have to do.
Many of the songs we play are originally tuned half a tone down, so when I got through our set lists, I keep two basses ready and grab the one I need. It's faster then re-tuning and I like the variety!
Fishheadjoe

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by VitalSigns

This is confusing. Why not just let notes be notes without throwing math into it?

This is an answer I wrote to that question in a thread a while ago.

One of the advantages to having so-called transposing instruments is that it keeps instruments in "families", where a musician who has learned one can relatively easily switch to another. Look at the playing range (as written) for a baritone sax here on the right of the page under the photo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone_saxophone

Now look at tenor, alto and soprano sax *written* ranges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor_saxophone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alto_saxophone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soprano_saxophone

Same for all of them, right? As it is for all the sax family (I think). Once you've learned the sax, you've learned the fingering and the range of notes as written on the stave for the whole family. Other aspects of playing technique will obviously vary because of the differences in physical size of the instruments (which is, of course, also what makes them sound different notes from the top to the bottom of their ranges, even though they're all written the same). But at least the player doesn't have to learn a new stave or fingerings to make the switch.

To illustrate further - say you have a guy in your band who's playing a C melody sax. This is actually one of the much less common saxes, but it helps to make this next point easily. If you're writing a chart and you want this guy to play a C, write a C and that's what you'll hear (it actually comes out an octave lower than written, like a bass does).

Now suppose you add another sax player on a tenor sax. This is a slightly larger instrument and has a range of notes that sound exactly a whole tone lower than the C melody sax, even though they're written the same for the reasons above. We call the tenor sax a Bb instrument because if you ask this guy to play a C, it will come out as a Bb. So if you want to hear a C in tune with your first guy, you have to ask your tenor player to play a D. And if want him to play an Eb a minor third above the other guy, write him an F. And so on...

The advantage is that instrument builders can offer a whole family of saxes with different audible ranges for orchestrators and musicians to create sounds with, but all with the same written range and fingering pattern. I guess similar considerations apply to some other transposing instruments like, for example, Bb trumpets (the most common) and F, C, D, Eb, E, G and A trumpets.

I hope that answers your question.

[mambo4]

BTW, this transposing really only becomes an issues when notating parts.
Most horn players are well aware of the transposed nature of their instrument,
and have no trouble translating notes, keys and scales you verbally request.

Many bass players OTOH don't even realize that the bass is a transposed instrument too...it sounds one octave below written.

[knumbskull]

interesting thread

I've done it at the request of singers. guess it suits some people's range better. i quite like a slight bit of low chunk in the sound too, but there's probably not much in it when you're talking about a half step.

[benbonewilly]

Originally Posted by flareaga

Does it really make that much of a difference?
As a bass player I have a hard time understanding.

I tune down so I can sing in keys that make my voice sound the best. Being a baritone, I either tune down a step, or slap a capo on real high on the neck and sing down an octave. I think most people who think they can't sing really can sing, but are trying to sing in keys that are way too high for their voices.

[BassIsFun17]

my band called BearKnuckle tunes to Eb for atleast half of our songs. i definitely think its easier to sing, and i love the tonal characteristics with distortion. we also have some songs tuned to B. so im using a four string tuned B-E-A-D. that is also a very nice tuning for singing vocals. especially if you like chunky riffs.

[benbonewilly]

Originally Posted by gtg697t

Yeah, really has everything to do with the vocalist, and whether:
1. he/she falls into the majority of vocalists that tend to sing flat and
2. he/she is willing to admit it.

Every cover gig I've played in where we've tuned, or transposed is essentially what it is, a half step down the vocals were great and vocalists retained their voices for gigs the next night. Not so much vice versa...

People don't tune down because a singer sings flat. People tune down because a singer's vocal range is low. Some people are naturally low voice singers (Basses, Altos, and Baritones), and some people are naturally gifted with high voices (tenors and sopranos). Tuning down lets low voice singers sing comfortably without having to strain their voices or scream to sing a vocal line. Most famous "rock" singers happen to be tenors or baritones who are gifted and worked really really hard to be able to sing in the tenor range. Most men just happen to be natural baritones, so tuning down really helps with that.

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by Liko

Good point. Most brass and many winds have a "concert pitch" where their C is really something else, because such instruments used to be made in every key before the invention of the tempered scale. The most popular ones survived; A and Bb on clarinet, Bb and C trumpets, Bb, Eb and Ab saxophones, and French horns in F. Trombones, baritones and tubas read the actual note, but the most popular partial tuning (the equivalent of open strings; no valves required) is still the key of Bb (though there are baritones and tubas in C). If you're playing with these instruments, their most comfortable key is their C, which will be two, three or even four flats for the rest of the world.

Eb clarinet is also extremely common.

Ab sax? Never heard of such a thing, though many tenor and bari horns have lower extensions these days.

[Downunderwonder]

It makes the strings lose tension to get that grungy sound out of the guitars.

[Kmonk]

A lot of bands do it for vocal reasons especially for live performances.

Here is a list of some bands that use Eb tuning

AC/DC - on "Night Prowler". "Ruff Stuff", and live performances since 2008.

Alice Cooper - The guitars in Alice Cooper's have been tuned a half step down on select live songs circa 1998.

Alice in Chains (most songs, dubbed 'Standard Alice tuning' by Jerry Cantrell).

Anthrax (on live performances).

Avenged Sevenfold (on certain studio recordings such as Almost Easy, Scream).

Black Sabbath during live performances, to ease the stress on guitarist Tony Iommi's fingers, which had been amputated by an accident at a sheet metal factory.


Bon Jovi - on live performances since 1988.[citation needed]

Buckethead - Used on many songs such as "Whitewash" and "Soothsayer (Dedicated to Aunt Suzie)".

The Cult - Used on "Ceremony", "Born Into This", and all live performances since 1989.

Danzig - on all albums since Danzig III: How the Gods Kill, and on all songs on Danzig and Danzig II: Lucifuge since 1990.

Def Leppard - on the song Photograph and during live performances.

Disturbed - on songs The Game ,Perfect Insanity ,Asylum , The Animal

Dream Theater - only a few songs, e.g. - "The Root of All Evil".

Green Day (used for the entity of their Dookie album and Insomniac album and used for some of the songs off Kerplunk and for the songs "21st Century Breakdown" and "Before the Lobotomy").

Guns N' Roses (most songs).

GWAR (with the exception of Hell-O).

Iron Maiden - on "Don't Look To The Eyes of a Stranger"

Jimi Hendrix Experience - most of their songs. Some examples: "Red House", "Voodoo Child (Slight Return)", "Spanish Castle Magic", "All Along the Watchtower"

Judas Priest - on "Reckless", "Burn in Hell", "Bullet Train", "Hellrider", "Eulogy", "Lochness", and live performances since Rob Halford's return.

Kiss - Just about everything live and studio

Live - on several songs, including "Selling the Drama".

Matchbox Twenty - on some songs, including "Push", as well as "Long Day".

Megadeth - on Youthanasia and songs "Angry Again", "Diadems" and "Problems".

Metallica - on "The God That Failed", and "Killing Time", the albums Load, ReLoad and Garage Inc., and on all E-tuned songs in live performances since 1995.

Motörhead - on most albums since their second album Overkill and on some E-tuned songs in live performances since 1978

Muse - Especially live, on songs such as "Fury", "Starlight", "United States of Eurasia", "MK Ultra" and others.

Nirvana - Some songs on Bleach and most songs on In Utero.

The Offspring tune to E♭ during live performances.

Oasis-For the song Put Yer Money Where Yer Mouth Is

Our Lady Peace
Ozzy Osbourne (All albums with Zakk Wylde, with the exception of Black Rain

Poison

Rise Against (since Revolutions per Minute)

Scorpions (live performances on some songs and many songs with Uli Jon Roth

Simple Plan -used for the entity of their "No Pads, No Helmets...Just Balls" album and "Still Not Getting Any..." album.

Slayer - on most albums since Haunting the Chapel and on all E-tuned songs in live performances since 1984.

The Smashing Pumpkins - Used on "Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness". Billy Corgan stated the tuning was used to give the album a darker sound.

Staind - Aaron Lewis uses E♭and Drop D♭on his guitars while Mike Mushok uses lower, often obscure tunings on baritone guitars.

Sum 41 - On some songs on the album "Does This Look Infected?", most of the album "Chuck" and most songs when played live

System of a Down (on "Lost in Hollywood" and "Lonely Day")

Thin Lizzy - Fighting, Jailbreak, Johnny the Fox, Bad Reputation and Black Rose: A Rock Legend are mostly in E♭ tuning, and all live performances since 1975 have been in E♭

U2 - on Boy and War.[citation needed] and many live versions of songs originally written in standard tuning.

Warrant - on albums "Dirty Rotten Filthy Stinking Rich" (though some songs are 1/4 step down), "Cherry Pie", and "Rockaholic"

Weezer - Most songs written in the "Blue album" and Pinkerton periods were in E♭ tuning, but recent live shows have been played with standard E tuning with all songs being transposed one half-step up
Van Halen - David Lee Roth era


Yngwie Malmsteen (most songs)

[dougjwray]

~Back in the old days, guitarists always talked about tuning down to make string bending easier (especially with heavy gauge strings, like Stevie Ray Vaughan's).

~I'm not sure about the "making it easier for singers" rationale, since I've played with plenty of singers who will sometimes move the key UP to make a song easier for them.

~I remember an interview with John Entwistle where he grumbled that he had perfect pitch when he started with the Who, but was losing it after years of tuning down (e.g. fingering the first fret on the bottom string and hearing an E come out). I had this story in the back of my head when I recently vowed to use only a 5-string in a grunge/metal cover band that I just joined. (The guitarist tunes down for a lot of the songs.) But I soon gave in, because open strings sound different than fretted notes (of course) and something like Van Halen's "Running With the Devil", for example, needed the open Eb string, in my opinion.

[rational baze]

As a 4 string player with one main bass I personally find tuning down a half-step infuriating. I do it at the request of a singer I gig with maybe only once a month. I find it changes the action, feel and tone of my bass and I don't see a set up or a change to a different gauge of string an option because I don't have to do the gig often.

Also I don't mean this to sound like rant, just thought I'd offer my opinion see if anyone else dislikes detuning for the same reasons.

[dougjwray]

Originally Posted by rational baze

As a 4 string player with one main bass I personally find tuning down a half-step infuriating. I do it at the request of a singer I gig with maybe only once a month. I find it changes the action, feel and tone of my bass and I don't see a set up or a change to a different gauge of string an option because I don't have to do the gig often.

Also I don't mean this to sound like rant, just thought I'd offer my opinion see if anyone else dislikes detuning for the same reasons.

I completely understand. I was REALLY infuriated when, at the second rehearsal of the grunge/metal band I just mentioned in my previous post, the very young guitarist casually informed me that I'd have to tune down for the entire rehearsal because he'd broken a string on his standard-tuned guitar and couldn't afford to buy a new one. (He's a shredding wunderkind with endorsements, and uses "special" strings according to him. ) Never mind the fact that I'd brought a stack of charts in the original keys, etc.
By the next rehearsal, his problem had been remedied, and I also relaxed about it because of the reason I gave earlier (the open strings do sound better to me on the half-step-down tunes). I don't really care about the slight difference in feel, and I mostly use basses with medium-to-high action, so tuning down doesn't create any rattling, buzzing, etc.