Why do a lot of bands tune to E flat?

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Originally Posted by bassybill

http://www.billygreen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sirduke.mp3

[Rick Blanc]

I'm kinda on the fence as to whether this is a necessity or a coolness thing. I mean I know some songs, like Take Me To The River would be PIA to play in Eb on an instrument tuned to E. So in that respect I get it. But the idea that "my singer likes flat keys" seems well, I'll say it, stupid. Don't guitars tuned to E have flat keys? Of coarse they do. Unless all the tunes you play are in Eb and all played in open position which sounds monumentally boring. The easier to bend notes thing, why not just use a lighter gauge string and standard tuning? I went to an open mic jam a few weeks ago where you played with the house band and tuned to Eb. All the songs I played with them were either in G C or D. Guitar player played mostly bar chords and fills. Like said, I'm on the fence about the need

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by bassybill

All keys ARE tuned equally with contemporary equal temperament instruments and they don't have unique tonal characteristics unless these are dictated by the limitations of the instrument or the musician.

Pick any old chord progression and play through it in C major (preferably on the piano). Play it again transposed to Gb and try to tell me that it doesn't conjure a different sense of tonality. Have you ever tried to transpose a tune and found it just sounded inexplicably wrong?

There is an explanation for this. In 12ET each key is tuned 'equally' in mathematical sense. But our brain innately wants to hear PURE sonorities (similar to those found in the harmonic series) and we simply can't overcome a natural phenomenon like the overtone series with a man-made construct like 12ET. (There was actually a time pre-12ET where you would have to literally retune the harpsichord etc. to play in certain keys)

Anyone who is not convinced, this book will change your perspective for life:

http://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperam.../dp/0393334201

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by Rick Blanc

I'm kinda on the fence as to whether this is a necessity or a coolness thing. I mean I know some songs, like Take Me To The River would be PIA to play in Eb on an instrument tuned to E. So in that respect I get it. But the idea that "my singer likes flat keys" seems well, I'll say it, stupid. Don't guitars tuned to E have flat keys? Of coarse they do. Unless all the tunes you play are in Eb and all played in open position which sounds monumentally boring. The easier to bend notes thing, why not just use a lighter gauge string and standard tuning? I went to an open mic jam a few weeks ago where you played with the house band and tuned to Eb. All the songs I played with them were either in G C or D. Guitar player played mostly bar chords and fills. Like said, I'm on the fence about the need

Many instruments (guitar, banjo, mandolin, ukulele) favour certain keys in the name of utilizing the open strings - namely Gmaj, Dmaj, Amaj, Emaj. Tuning down 1/2 step allows players of these instruments to use the same chord shapes in flat keys. Try to play through a tune in Db or Gb on a mandolin or banjo in standard tuning* - you the resonance of the open strings, which is what gives these instruments their characteristic sound (especially in folk traditions)

*Open G tuning, for example.

[EagleMoon]

It messes with my head to hear a band play a song half a step down from what it was originally recorded. Personally I'd rather hear it a whole step down in D rather than E flat.

[Rick Blanc]

Yeah I get that but to tell me at a jam in a very art snotty way that "we tune to Eb" then call Blitzkrieg Bop in Ab which tuned down a half step is G which is the key the Ramones did it in on standard tuned instruments just made me laugh.

[OmNomNom]

Tony Iommi did so with Sabbath because he liked the more slack tension - it made bends and the like easier to pull.

[Ezmar]

Originally Posted by OmNomNom

Tony Iommi did so with Sabbath because he liked the more slack tension - it made bends and the like easier to pull.

Actually I heard he did it because he injured his hand in an accident, and the lower tension was the easiest way for him to play.

[Demon_Hunter]

Tuning down makes it sound chunkier!!!

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by Rick Blanc

Yeah I get that but to tell me at a jam in a very art snotty way that "we tune to Eb" then call Blitzkrieg Bop in Ab which tuned down a half step is G which is the key the Ramones did it in on standard tuned instruments just made me laugh.

I don't see what's 'art snotty' about it, nor who implied that. There are many reasons for tuning to Eb:

1) Ease of playing in certain keys.
2) Different sonic characteristics of said keys.
3) Lower range for singers.
4) Lower string tension.

All are perfectly practical in application.

As bass players, it's part of the life. Take the 30 seconds to detune, or bring a 5-string. The majority of us will encounter this from time to time.

[Rick Blanc]

Originally Posted by hoketus

I don't see what's 'art snotty' about it, nor who implied that. There are many reasons for tuning to Eb:

1) Ease of playing in certain keys.
2) Different sonic characteristics of said keys.
3) Lower range for singers.
4) Lower string tension.

All are perfectly practical in application.

Didn't say anybody here said that. That was the dooshy guitar guy running the jam. It was all drenched with attitude that tuning down made them way cooler and a real rock band. Ya just had to be there. I work at the national galley of art and I hear that attitude a lot from curators and conservators. Anyway I'm not saying its all bad or stupid or whatever. I did say and agree with an earlier poster about instruments sounding different using open strings. But to some degree that may be a bit self serving. Most of the dumps we play in have maybe 30 hammered people just trying to get laid. I'm guessing they couldn't give a crap if your guitar is tuned a half step lower or if the bass player is using round core or hex core strings. YMMV though

[Schlyder]

IME, going back as far as the 70s, many rock/pop guitar bands tuned down a 1/2 step mainly to make it easier for the singers.
The easier bending for the guitars was an added bonus.
It had nothing to do with sounding "darker". And we never thought of it as anything more than being "downtuned a half step". Some claimed that it made it harder for others to copy their licks if they didn't know the "secret" LOL.
We never thought of the tuning being called D#open or Eb or something. Low E was still low E.

We used our ears. Everyone didn't have tuners to rely on. If you played with a piano, you tuned back up. It wasn't a big deal. And not too hard a concept to grasp. When you wrote a chart... if the song was in E... you didn't write the chart in Eb, you wrote it in E.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by hoketus

Pick any old chord progression and play through it in C major (preferably on the piano). Play it again transposed to Gb and try to tell me that it doesn't conjure a different sense of tonality. Have you ever tried to transpose a tune and found it just sounded inexplicably wrong?

There is an explanation for this. In 12ET each key is tuned 'equally' in mathematical sense. But our brain innately wants to hear PURE sonorities (similar to those found in the harmonic series) and we simply can't overcome a natural phenomenon like the overtone series with a man-made construct like 12ET. (There was actually a time pre-12ET where you would have to literally retune the harpsichord etc. to play in certain keys)

Anyone who is not convinced, this book will change your perspective for life:

http://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperam.../dp/0393334201

Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. The piano is tuned equal temperament - so how can there be any inherent difference in the quality of each key? If I play something on the piano in C and then play the same thing in Cb (loads of flats in that key, right?), how is it going to sound any different other than the same thing a semitone lower?

I think "sense of tonality" and "PURE sonorities" are pretty much meaningless phrases in the way they're used here. Yes, there are differences between equal temperament and other systems of tuning but that definitely does not mean there are inherent differences between keys on conventional instruments (open strings aside), and it most especially does not mean that keys with flats have a different sound to other keys. The idea that Eb and Ab, for example, somehow have something in common in their "sound" that is different to E or D is, frankly, ridiculous.

[VitalSigns]

Honestly, you guys are over complicating this whole thing...

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by EagleMoon

It messes with my head to hear a band play a song half a step down from what it was originally recorded. Personally I'd rather hear it a whole step down in D rather than E flat.

How can you tell? Do you have perfect pitch? If so, why does the D version sound so much better?

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by VitalSigns

Honestly, you guys are over complicating this whole thing...

I agree entirely. This thread is so full of misconceptions about keys, vocal ranges, tunings... any student who wandered in here hoping to learn something about music could end up seriously confused and misinformed. There's absolutely no intrinsic difference between the sounds of flats, naturals or sharps - those are just NAMES we give to different notes.

In the spirit of John Turner's sticky at the top of this forum, I'm going to close the thread for a while to get some input from my admin colleagues on this, as it seems to me to totally undermine the whole purpose of the General Instruction forum.