Why does this work so well??

[NCD]

I was playing with arpeggios, ii-V-I in the key of C Major. You can only practice them all the way up and down for so long before the brain goes numb, even with different fingerings, so I started playing around.

I know enough about walking lines to understand dominant, scalar and chromatic approaches and I was goofing off. Then I hit on something I really, really liked. It has a great, strong pull into the G and I can't figure out why for the life of me.

I was playing ii (Dm) and used the following to approach the G of the V chord:

G -------2--2------
D -----------3-----
A -5-Rest-----3----
E -------------3---

So the notes are D (rest) A-A-F-C-G.

Both F and C are in the Dm chord but what I don't understand is why the pull to the G is so great here. It's not the upper or lower dominant(5th) of the G and there's no way it's even close to being a scalar or chromatic approach.

All I can figure is that maybe, maybe it has something to do with the fact that C is the lower 5th of F and G is the lower 5th of C... but if that was the case shouldn't the pull sound correct going up, not down??

And yet, when I play it with a bouncy, finger snapping feel that double pull into the G feels more right than any other way I've tried the approach.

Considering that this is about the only approach that I tried that isn't based in a dominant, chromatic or scalar approach I find this confusing. Add in the fact that the C isn't part of Gdom7 and is the 7th of Dm, I can't see why this works as well as it does.

But I'd sure like to know so I can do it more often.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[MalcolmAmos]

You figured it out. You are in C. G is C's dominant (5th) note and or chord. A dominant 5th wants to lead to it's tonic I chord or 1 note. The 1-3-5 notes or I-IV-V chords form a predictable pattern you can rely upon. I think that is the pulling power you are hearing. Here is a little something using chords as an example. Notes pretty much follow the same logic.

• The I tonic chord can go anywhere it wants to but when you do you have resolved all your tension do you want to resolve right now.
• ii is a sub-dominant chord that wants to move to a dominant chord.
• iii is a minor median chord, i.e. it's a moving agent. It normally pulls the vi with it in that move.
• IV is a sub-dominant chord. The ii and IV both being sub-dominant chords can substitute for each other. Their task in life is to move to a dominant chord.
• The V is the dominant chord. It's task in life is to move to the tonic chord. When you add a b7 and make it a dominant seventh chord it wants to move to the tonic RIGHT NOW. It's your climax chord.
• The vi wants to move to a sub-dominant chord.
• The viidim is your diminished chord. It is also a dominant chord like the V, so it likes to move to the tonic I chord, however, it likes to take a more round about way and because of this is used in turn-a-rounds quite a lot, i.e. viidim-iii-vi-ii-V7-I so if you want to end the verse quickly use the V7, if you want to turn-a-round use the viidim, both lead you to the I tonic chord.
  
  Might find something here. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...hp/t-8383.html
  
  With this in mind go back over your question - you figured it out. The above are the "rules" I like the word guidelines better. We break the rules all the time and it still sounds good.
  

Have fun.

[NCD]

Malcolm,

Thanks for the info! I may have misread your post but it seems as if you're describing the V-I change instead of the ii-V change. That said, I did learn things from your notes that I hadn't known so it helped in other areas.

I edited the rest of this to simplify it greatly...

The issue I'm running into is in the approach of F-C-G, which is the ii-V change I'm using.

If we used the circle of 5th's to create dominant approaches in a walking line I'd expect to see G-C-F as a double lower dominant approach that resolved on the F, not the other way around where the 5ths are played backward and the new root is G.

What I'm playing is F-C-G, in the chord of Dm and in this context it's the ii chord in the key of C Major.

I understand that G is the 5th of C, but what is the C to the G when used as an approach note TO the G, not as a resolve from it??

This, is the confusion that haunts me as I try to find caffeine this morning.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by NCD

Malcolm,

Thanks for the info! I may have misread your post but it seems as if you're describing the V-I change instead of the ii-V change.

OK look at the big picture, what does ii (the Dm) like to move to? A dominant chord, what is the Gdom7? A dominant chord. Big picture - look at what chords (all chords) like to do - then let them.

The key is in C Maj but the chord I was in was Dm. The move was Dm-Gdom7. What you described in your first paragraph was about the dominant resolving on the tonic, which would be the Gdom7-CMaj chord change and everything you wrote made perfect sense when referring to the V-I change.

If Gdom7 is actual G7 or the dominant 7th chord in the key of C - what does the ii (Dm) like to move to? The V or V7 or the G7. Which it is doing.

..... my confusion is with the approach to the ii-V change.

I understand some theory but I clearly have holes of ignorance in other areas. Hmmm....

You may have put a hint to it in your notes...

"ii is a sub-dominant chord that wants to move to a dominant chord."

Since Gdom7 is the V, it doesn't get more dominant than that. Perhaps the need to move to a dominant chord is so strong that it will sound as if almost anything walking into it works well as long as you stay within the notes of Dm7 to approach the G... even if you use something other than a chromatic, scalar or dominant approach to do it.

What is bugging me is that I can't figure out what the C note is in relation to the G. I realize that the G is the 5th of the C and all this would make more sense to me if I had moved G-C instead of C-G.

But what I can't seem to figure out is why the descending run if A-F-C-G work so well in the key of C Major when moving from ii-V. The C-G isn't a dominant approach, scalar approach or a chromatic approach... yet it sounds great.

You are right it does sound great. I've been picking it out on the keyboard trying to find why myself. All I can come up with is - when things like this sound good, it probably has to do with a minor key which I seldom use so I'm at a loss also. A is the relative minor of C.......

I'll come back to it this afternoon and see if something jells.

[Spin Doctor]

When you play this figure: "D (rest) A-A-F-C", you just spelled out the entire D minor 7th chord (D,F,A,C). Then you just went to G.

Chord tones always work. Is that what you want to know or did I miss something?

[NCD]

Cool, thanks!

As you can see, I edited my reply to simplify it while you were quoting my long winded version.

But you do definitely see why the confusion exists.

There are times when I will have to say something just works and not worry about why but I'm hoping this won't become one of them. I love the way that this pulls into the G when it changes to the V chord and the way I moved I-ii for the next iteration was just as nice.

Here is the whole sequence... played at 96bpm to a practice drum track. R= rest (play as an 8th note and cut it).

----2--2--|-----------|----------|-------54-|---2--2
--------3-|-----------|----2--255|----2----5|--------
5R-------3|----2--255|3R--------|3R--------|5R-----(Repeat)
----------|3R---------|----------|-----------|-------

[NCD]

Spin Doc, there is a real strong pull to the G. I do realize that chord tones always work and that's what allows us to get creative with melodic lines... but the pull to the G here is just too perfect and I had thought it would be due to the approach being one of the standard tactics used in walking lines... but it's not.

So I started to wonder why it pulls so strongly and fits so well.

If you play around with the example above, that's what I was playing. It was just a goof off session after doing a bunch of arpeggio practice and it was one of those things that just worked. So I'm examining it to figure out why.

[JTE]

The C is the tension in the Dmin7 chord. And our ear loves to hear a note go to its fifth. So, the D A and F define the ii chord, the C creates tension, and when you play the G on the downbeat of the chord change to G, you've not only resolved the tension, but the ear WANTED to hear it go to either F or G.

John

[NCD]

JTE after reading your explanation I believe you understand it perfectly... but now my brain wonders why the tension was created and why the ear loves to hear a note got TO it's own fifth instead of come FROM the fifth to resolve.

Alas... when answers lead to more questions this may be frustrating at times but it's actually a good thing. It means I understood the answer well enough to dig more deeply and start to wonder about that tension and the fact that the ear likes to hear movement to the fifth.

I think it's called learning, but I could be wrong.

[JTE]

The tension is because the C is so close to the D. The fourth and fifth are related in that C to G is a fifth, G to C is a fourth.

John

[NCD]

Light bulb moment!

I think I get it. The ii is trying to resolve to the D. The closer you get, the more tension there is... kind of like a magnet.

So what this is doing is flirting closely with the D to build the tension in the ii chord, then quickly diverting that tension and dumping it into an alternative release, being the 5th of the C, the G.

This also sets up the next bar, which is in G.

Man, it's almost like a drafting/slingshot pass in racing. You hit that vacuum behind a car and it draws you in... the closer you get to collision, the more intense the vacuum. But at the last moment you dodge the collision and divert all that momentum, using it for a different purpose and that's where the momentum for the pass comes from.

But in this case you draw closer to D, build up momentum and then divert to the fifth instead of the root.

Since the fifth is the root of the next chord (the V) you can just keep on going and it works.

It's one thing to read the words... it's another to feel it in action. Pretty cool, and I'll definitely be keeping this in mind for other things.

Thanks!

[NCD]

I was just looking at the chart and realized that if you look at the whole thing with the idea that the G is the target, D is the 5th of that target. I'm thinking that it's not simply that the D note pulls into the G but that the entire Dm chord wants to pull that way, since D is the 5th of G.

Max tension is set up at C, one note from the D which is the root of the chord.

Intstead of approaching G from the note that is it's 5th, it's like approaching it from the entire chord that is based on it's 5th (Dm).

With tension maxed at the C (one note from the root of the Dm chord) it makes for a big release when the Dm chord resolves to the G... since D-G would be an upper dominant approach.

Hmmm... I'm either beginning to understand how complex the inter relations are in a chord change or I'm just going in circles like a dog chasing it's tail. Only time will tell.

[Spin Doctor]

Not a bad question, but one that has been asked before. Centuries ago...

The D minor 7 just wants to go the the G7 because the D minor 7 is a 2nd class chord that wants to go to a 1st class chord (G7) which wants to go to the tonic. There is no real "established" reason as to "why" as far as I know.

Now, if I remember correctly, a guy named Jean Rameau tried to figure this same thing out in the 18th century and the best he came up with, was to analyze many pieces of music to see which chords seemed to come in front of other chords most often and one of the things he figured was that, a 6-2-5-1 progression happened to be very common. He established no reason for it. It just is.

This is where chord classes come from and there are 4 chord classes. And there are a few types of different progressions: Normal, Repitition, Elision and Retrogression. The 6-2-5-1 progression is a "Normal" progression and is the most common.

So the short but perhaps unsatisfactory answer is that it works becasuse it works! Maybe it's up to you to figure out the ultimate "Why"?

As far as the tension in the chord motion goes, yeah you are prolly hearing the D minor in its entirety, wanting to go to the G7 in its entirety. Because if you play a "C" note by itself, it doesn't want to go anywhere. It has no context for wanting to move anywhere.

I've never noticed a "I" chord wanting to go to a "V" chord. It's always the other way around. so to say a C wanted to go to a G didn't work for me so well. Because everything in the universe wants to be at rest. Nothing wants to be at a higher energy state on its own, so a C being the tonic does not "want" to go to a G. I would not think so anyway, but I could be wrong. It happens a lot...

This is one of the things I just hit the "I believe" button on, and go with it.

[Febs]

Another thing to consider is that by putting a rest after the D, in the remainder of that measure you have outlined an F major triad, which is the IV chord in the key of C. A I-IV-V progression is a very common progression that you've probably heard a million times in your lifetime. It may be that even though the last note you played before the G is a C, you're hearing the F triad in its entirety, and it sounds "right" for that IV chord to move to the V chord (G).

[NCD]

Spin Doc: I think you're right about the chords but you may have misunderstood a small, no longer significant detail. When I said C-G I was referring to just the notes, not chords. The chords were Dm-Gdom7, the standard ii-V from the same 6-2-5-1 you were referring to.

Febs that's a great point about the rest. Though the bar may have D as the tonic of the current chord, but the rest may be causing the ear to focus on just the A-F-C-G as an independant phrase or idea... which when played through at speed, it is.

When played through a few times, it's as if the D introduces the phrase of the ii chord, but is actually the last note of the previous phrase from the second bar of the I chord.

[mambo4]

NCD,
so you're not asking why the chord Dm7 resloves to the chord G7, but specifically why the NOTE C resolves to the NOTE G?

[NCD]

I was asking why the pull to the G note was so strong but it seems to be the result of the tension in the Dm chord releasing and then carrying through into the next bar.

[mambo4]

Sounds like you got it.