Why should I practice modes?

[Axtman]

I know a little bit of music theory and know what modes of a scale are, but am trying to figure out if they have a practical use. Thanks!

[fdeck]

One reason is as follows: Think of having to get from point A to point B in a bass line, or a solo, with all of the notes in the line harmonizing with the chord structure. Chances are, a major scale won't be the scale that fits best, and some other mode will fit better.

If you "know" the modes in terms of being able to hear them in your mind and play them without too much thought, it is a great help when improvising bass lines. Understanding the modes in theory is not enough -- they have to be practiced.

Going further, there is some theory surrounding which modes work with which combinations of chords, something that I wish I was more knowledgeable about.

[dmrogers]

I'm ready..........

[Tehrin Cole]

Modes simply put,are scales within a scale.They're a great help,when you're playing chord progressions.Think of them like,playing a diatonic scale,for example(CDEFGABC),from different starting points.Let's start with the C major scale,for example:CDEFGABC,is known as the Ionian mode,or natural major scale.DEFGABCD,is the Dorian mode,or a minor scale w/a #6th.EFGABCDE,is the Phrygian mode,or a minor scale w/ a flat 2nd.FGABCDEF,is the Lydian mode,or a major scale w/a #4th.GABCDEFG,is the Mixolydian mode,or a major scale w/a flat 7th.ABCDEFGA,is the Aeolian mode,or the natural minor scale.BCDEFGAB,is the Locrian mode,or a minor scale w/a flat 2nd,and a flat 5th(this scale is also known as the"half diminished scale").Which brings us back to the Ionian mode,played one octave higher.Modes are great for creating lines,as well as solos,based on many chord progressions(1-6-2-5, 3-6-2-5, 1-4-5, 2-5-1,etc.).Whenever there's a scale,whether it's diatonic,pentatonic,altered,or otherwise,there will always be a set of modes,within them.This is also important,when you learn all of your positions.Each of your positions will contain anywhere from 4,to 5 modes per position,thus making it easier to get around your fingerboard.You should practice your scales,modes,and positions in every key!This is also a great way to know where all of the notes are,on your fingerboard! Peace!

[Torch7]

Originally Posted by Tehrin Cole

This is also a great way to know where all of the notes are,on your Fingerboard!

There is much debate of to use the modes or not to use the modes, and each side of the argument a typically adamant about there perspective of modes, Tehrin Cole did a good job of summarizing modes. The above quote is reason enough to practice modes by itself.

I'm actually in the middle of editing some youtube videos about modes & there use.

Some look at the major scale as a whole, and others view the major scale as containing 7 separate modes, my philosophy is at the end of the day, whatever works for you go for it.

[Asher S]

Originally Posted by Axtman

Why should I practice modes?

To gain additional perspective and understanding on the relationships between the notes, intervals, and chords within the major scale.

Before this thread deteriorates to the usual debate, note that there is absolutely no need to "choose" between modes and key centers. Both are simply different approaches to the same notes. Some tunes are easier to hear and visualize in modes, others in key centers. With practice you'll learn how to use both approaches in many situations. Additional understanding and insight is always a good thing.

[kb9wyz]

I think that it helps with ear training. Learning the sound of the modes will help you identify what's going on in a song better, so you can get a feel for where it is and where it is going.

Also, it never hurts to practice hand movements. Muscle memory has got to come from somewhere.

Originally Posted by Axtman

I know a little bit of music theory and know what modes of a scale are, but am trying to figure out if they have a practical use. Thanks!

It's a good thing to learn because it helps many things like your ears, communication with other musicians, creativity (since you can make up stuff in modes). It's also a method of approaching harmony since you can learn how the modes fit with chords. It's an approach and there's lots you can do with it. There will always be other approaches, this is just one.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Axtman

I know a little bit of music theory and know what modes of a scale are, but am trying to figure out if they have a practical use. Thanks!

They would certainly be of practical use, if you were trying to play "Modal Jazz" like Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" ....

[JTE]

Why practice modes? Well, I don't think you should practice them. At least not until you undestand basic harmony.

I. Do you know the major scale- that is-
A. You know the whole-step and half-step formula for making a major scale
B. You know how to figure out the notes in any major key, using the correct enharmonics
C. You know what it sounds like- you know what the next note will sound like before you play it
D. You can find it and play it over two octaves ascending and descedning in any key

II. Do you know how to build the basic chords- that is, you KNOW
A. A major chord is 1 3 5
B. A minor chord is 1 b3 5
C. A 7th chord is 1 3 5 b7
D. A minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7
E. A major 7 is 1 3 5 7
F. A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7 (and you understand why it's called the bb7, not the 6)
G. An augmented chord is 1 3 #5

III. You understand and know the chords that come from the scale when you harmonize it- that is you KNOW not only that the chords are:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min7
vii min7 b5 (or half-diminshed)
BUT, you know WHY!!!

IV. You can work out how to play the arpeggio over two octaves ascending and descending the chords in any key. You don't have to memorize them (heck, I hate memorization), but you can figure them out and they make sense.

V. You know how a ii V I defines a key center

Then you can start learning and practicing modes. But when you do, do them all from one tonic. Don't learn C Ionian then D Dorian, etc. You have to OWN the differences between them for them to be of any use. And frankly, the way most people explain modes, is stupid and pointless.

If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chord DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first.

Now, if you're playing striclty modal stuff, you need to understand the mode just like I say you should know the major scale (see #I up above). If you don't know all that stuff about Lydian, you don't know the mode at all, you're just wiggling your fingers.

jte

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by JTE

Why practice modes? Well, I don't think you should practice them. At least not until you undestand basic harmony.

I. Do you know the major scale- that is-
A. You know the whole-step and half-step formula for making a major scale
B. You know how to figure out the notes in any major key, using the correct enharmonics
C. You know what it sounds like- you know what the next note will sound like before you play it
D. You can find it and play it over two octaves ascending and descedning in any key

II. Do you know how to build the basic chords- that is, you KNOW
A. A major chord is 1 3 5
B. A minor chord is 1 b3 5
C. A 7th chord is 1 3 5 b7
D. A minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7
E. A major 7 is 1 3 5 7
F. A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7 (and you understand why it's called the bb7, not the 6)
G. An augmented chord is 1 3 #5

III. You understand and know the chords that come from the scale when you harmonize it- that is you KNOW not only that the chords are:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min7
vii min7 b5 (or half-diminshed)
BUT, you know WHY!!!

IV. You can work out how to play the arpeggio over two octaves ascending and descending the chords in any key. You don't have to memorize them (heck, I hate memorization), but you can figure them out and they make sense.

V. You know how a ii V I defines a key center

Then you can start learning and practicing modes. But when you do, do them all from one tonic. Don't learn C Ionian then D Dorian, etc. You have to OWN the differences between them for them to be of any use. And frankly, the way most people explain modes, is stupid and pointless.

If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chord DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first.

Now, if you're playing striclty modal stuff, you need to understand the mode just like I say you should know the major scale (see #I up above). If you don't know all that stuff about Lydian, you don't know the mode at all, you're just wiggling your fingers.

jte

Yep, pretty much.

When you're dealing with music, or a section of music, that is readily and accurately explainable in terms of harmonic movement within a single key (which is a lot of the time, though for most of us not all of the time), and your goal is to play tonally within that key, then the mode-per-chord approach is really kinda pointless. It adds nothing to your knowledge, and it just complicates things. As I've said elsewhere, it's like determining the number of buffalo in a herd by counting all the legs and dividing by 4. You can deal with this kind of music in an effective, elegant, and sophisticated--actually, I think, a MORE effective, elegant, and sophisticated--way without ever dealing with modes at all.

When you're dealing with music that is in fact functioning modally rather than in a conventional major or minor key, or where the chords don't have a clear key-based relation to each other, that's when modes or the mode/scale-per-chord approach might be more useful.

But really, the OP needs to understand more about key and tonality before worrying too much about modes. The idea that each chord always necessitates thinking about a different scale/mode is one of the more counterproductive things we tell learners, IMO. I dunno, is it just bass players that are especially vulnerable to this, because we play the root so much?

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

But really, the OP needs to understand more about key and tonality before worrying too much about modes. The idea that each chord always necessitates thinking about a different scale/mode is one of the more counterproductive things we tell learners, IMO. I dunno, is it just bass players that are especially vulnerable to this, because we play the root so much?

Nah, I think it's because inthe '80s all those guitarists started playing a gazillin gnat-notes per measure, and we had the explosion of guitar instructional material. And face it, it's sexier to learn a new scale than it is to lean music. And that carried over to bass. Remember Herb Mickman's column in Bass Player Magazine- it was essentially "scale of the month". Of course, you still had Howard Roberts and Carol Kaye getting to the basics of harmony. But they were old farts, so of course that COULDN'T be applicable to what Steve Vai, EVH, and "hair metal band of the day" were playing.

I keep harping on two things in this forum. One, "knowing" a scale is a lot of things beyond just being able to execute it on the instrument. Second, modes are useful, but they're way far down the list of the things a bass player needs to learn.

Our job, regardless of "genre" or "style" comes down to two things:
A. Connect the rhythm with the rest of the music.
B. DEFINE the harmony.

We can not define the harmony if we don't know it. And modes as generally taught and explained in pop music teaching, in TB, even in Norm Stockton's videos, totally eviscerate harmony in favor of scales.

Learn the modes, but only after you understand enough music to know their utility and their short-comings.

jte

[Axtman]

Great replies everybody! Thanks!

[Tehrin Cole]

Yes,..you should learn basic harmony,...that's the truth!Most people learn to read music,one note at a time thereby,building up to playing your first major scale,and playing your first chord(basic harmony).One thing that I have to disagree with is that,modes aren't necessarily,relegated to just"modal jazz".Many melodies outside of the jazz world,are based on modes,...it's a fact!Before you learn any mode,you must learn your scales,in order to learn your scale degrees.Scale degrees simply put,are the scales numerical order.For example:C/1 ,D/2 ,E/3, F/4, G/5, A/6, B/7, C/8,or octave.By taking every other note,and playing them as a triad,you get your basic chord progressions,i;e:C-E-G,is a major triad, D-F-A,is a minor triad, E-G-B,is a minor triad, F-A-C,is a major triad, G-B-D, is a major triad, A-C-E,is a minor triad, B-D-F,is a diminshed triad,which brings us back to C-E-G,one octave higher.We can see in this example,how chords are derived from scales.By looking at each of these examples as a 1-3-5 configuration,you can now build chords,and hear the differences between major,and minor tonalities,and what determines a major chord from a minor chord,is what happens with the 3rd,...in other words,let's take C-E-G,a major triad.By flatting the 3rd(C-Eb-G),I just turned it into a minor triad.Modes are the way to connect your chord progressions,into a potential melody,bassline,or solo idea.Here's a great way to practice modes:Have a friend(preferably someone who is a competent musician)play the chord examples I just laid out.As they play each chord,play the corresponding mode,...you should be able to hear the correlation,of each one.On the next pass,harmonize with each chord.In other words,play a different modal degree,over each chord,...for example,if he's playing the C major chord(C-E-G),play the phrygian mode over it(EFGABCDE).This will train your ears to readily hear harmonies that may have otherwise,escaped you.Just like your scales,learn your modes,in order,...period!In EVERY key! Peace!

[bThumper38]

Well simple.....if you're going to play bass you need modes! period

[derekd]

You certainly don't have to. Imo, modes are the most overrated concept I have run across in my 25+ years of playing music. There are so many more important aspects of playing. Basically any scale, mode, arpeggio, etc, are just pitch collections. A way of organizing notes. There are many paths to the top of the mountain.

Modes confuse more people than any other musical concept I know of, except maybe bitonals. So, you can certainly go your whole bass playing career without them. I regularly play jazz/rock/pop guitar, and bass in rock/pop settings.

[Bruce Lindfield]

You can certainly play rock/pop with no reference to modes - but I don't believe you can successfully play Jazz without an understanding of modes, as the concept is central to a lot of what is going on in Jazz!

It's the basis of constructing flowing solos or possibly basslines over chord structures that are constantly changing - 2 chords per bar changing every bar...?

Also - there are many Jazz originals that are constructed around a particular mode - so I already mentioned Miles and I have played many others. So for example Airto Moreira wrote a tune where for certain sections,you just play Aeolian Mode - no chords/changes are given.

If you don't know about modes - you just cannot play that tune!

[tcbass4ever]

jte you hit the whole thing in the nutshell,when i first started many years ago those were
the first things i learned and how valuble they are,they are a must!

[derekd]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

You can certainly play rock/pop with no reference to modes - but I don't believe you can successfully play Jazz without an understanding of modes, as the concept is central to a lot of what is going on in Jazz!

It's the basis of constructing flowing solos or possibly basslines over chord structures that are constantly changing - 2 chords per bar changing every bar...?

Also - there are many Jazz originals that are constructed around a particular mode - so I already mentioned Miles and I have played many others. So for example Airto Moreira wrote a tune where for certain sections,you just play Aeolian Mode - no chords/changes are given.

If you don't know about modes - you just cannot play that tune!

I will respectfully disagree. A couple of generations of jazz players have come and gone that didn't speak or think in modes. Joe Pass would be a good example. When asked about modes by students, he would basically give you the crumudeonly equivalent of "get off my lawn".

However, he clearly used color tones that we would explain today in modal language. So, again, modes are just one way of organizing pitches, but knowledge of them is certainly not necessary if one has good ears.

We have basically seen modes come to the forefront, along with chord/scale theory once jazz went to university. Academia needs a crystalized method for standarized purposes. X scale/mode over Y chord is that sort of thing.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by derekd

However, he clearly used color tones that we would explain today in modal language. .

Well - I think that's the big point - let's face it, nobody reading this thread is a new Joe Pass ( although I'm sure some of them think they are!! ) !!

The point is about giving the best advice - not saying : well (insert big star name) didn't need this so you don't....

If you are going to understand Jazz now, coming from where we are - you are going to have a far,far better chance of doing so, if you understand modes.

OK - 1 in a million players might get by with great ears - but the chance that people reading this thread might be that person, is so small you might as well ignore it and say - you need to understand modes - just get on with it!