Why are there no notes between b/c and e/f ?

[Neel]

Topic says it all. I don't get it. Why didn't they just use one less letter?

Thanks for the info. I'm hoping it will help meunderstand the whole thing a little bit better.

Does it have something to do with the C major scale and trying to fit around it?

[TheBassBetween]

Google says:

Each pitch is related by the value 1.05946309436. By multiplying the pitch of any note by this number, you get the frequency of the next higher note. So A=440, A#=466.2, B=493.9 and C=523.3. There is no note between B & C.
By dividing a pitch, by 1.05946309436, you get the next lower semitone.
There is a B#, which is enharmonic to C.

[lowerclef]

Technically, there are lots of notes between B and C. Western music is based on a 12-note scale. So if you go from A to A (the next octave up or down), it makes one "cycle" so to speak, which is divided up into 12 notes in between (representing the keys of a piano). However, on an instrument like trombone (or fretless bass!) it is possible to hit many notes in-between. Sounds out of tune to our ears, but is in fact widely used in various forms of microtonal and world music.

But in terms of your question, B to C or E to F is the same musical "distance" as F to F# or A to Ab. They're half-steps.

It's a complicated subject, but here's some more info if you're curious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_keyboard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal_music

[Chipsonfire]

I understand all that was said and where 1.05946309436 comes from (the 12th root of 2, allowing for every octave to be exactly twice the frequency of the previous octave), but what that doesn't answer is why 12 semitones? If there were 14, then you could have a sharp for each one and instead of multiplying by the 12th root, you multiply by the 14th root. Then, every 14 semitones you get a new octave and every note has a sharp and flat. Is it because it sounds right with 12, or is there a deeper mathematical reasoning? Or both, perhaps?

[JansenW]

Music was discovered, not invented.

Mathematically, in a 12 half-step octave (ex. C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B), there are no "missing" notes between 3-4 (B-C) and 7-8 (E-F).

It's more of a naming convention that reflects that we discovered Western music "ear-farts" at these intervals of a major scale.

[Chipsonfire]

Originally Posted by JansenW

Music was discovered, not invented.

Mathematically, in a 12 half-step octave (ex. C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B), there are no "missing" notes between 3-4 (B-C) and 7-8 (E-F).

It's more of a naming convention that reflects that we discovered Western music "ear-farts" at these intervals of a major scale.

So what you are saying is that the system was invented to describe what was tradition? And the decision to make the lack of sharp/flat between B and C and between E and F was just the most logical place to put them in an attempt to make it somewhat symmetrical?

[JansenW]

Originally Posted by Chipsonfire

So what you are saying is that the system was invented to describe what was tradition? And the decision to make the lack of sharp/flat between B and C and between E and F was just the most logical place to put them in an attempt to make it somewhat symmetrical?

IMHO, the naming of B-C and E-F reflected what sounded "right" to name them "natural" notes.

[Chipsonfire]

Originally Posted by JansenW

IMHO, the naming of B-C and E-F reflected what sounded "right" to name them "natural" notes.

That was my next guess I should talk to my music teacher that I had for Fundamentals of Music about some of this music theory stuff that I didn't pay enough attention to in class

[DocBop]

Wikipedia is your friend.....

Non-Western scales

In traditional Western music, scale notes are most often separated by equally-tempered tones or semitones, creating, at most, twelve pitches per octave. Many other musical traditions employ scales that include other intervals or a different number of pitches. A common scale in Eastern music is the pentatonic scale, consisting of five tones, in a pattern equivalent to the black keys on a piano. In the middle eastern Hejaz scale, there are some intervals of three semitones. Gamelan music uses a small variety of scales including Pélog and Sléndro, none including equally tempered intervals. Ragas in Indian classical music often employ intervals smaller than a semitone (Burns 1998, 247). Arabic music maqamat may use quarter tone intervals (Zonis, 1973). In both ragas and maqamat, the distance between a note and an inflection (e.g., ?ruti) of that same note may be less than a semitone.
[edit]Microtonal scales

The term microtonal music usually refers to music with roots in traditional Western music that employs non-standard scales or scale intervals. The composer Harry Partch made custom musical instruments to play compositions that employed a 43-note scale system, and the American jazz vibraphonist Emil Richards experimented with such scales in his 'Microtonal Blues Band' in the 1970s. Easley Blackwood has written microtonal but equal-tempered composition. John Cage, the American experimental composer, also created works for prepared piano which use varied, sometimes random, scales. Microtonal scales are also used in traditional Indian Raga music, which has a variety of modes which are used not only as modes or scales but also as defining elements of the song, or raga.
19 equal temperament
24 equal temperament
31 equal temperament
53 equal temperament
72 equal temperament
88 equal temperament

Wikipedia Music Scale info....

[Chipsonfire]

Well, although that was informative, it didn't answer the question lol. I actually had a lecture in my music class from a classically trained Indian singer who explained all about Ragas and so forth. Thet doesn't, however, explain 12 semitones for 7 natural notes

[Neel]

I guess they started the 7 letter thing before they realized there were only 12 semitones?

I dunno man...


edit: I should add, I understand that there is a mathematical relationship between different notes, and I understand that the c is essentially a b sharp, but what I don't get is why the scale isn't as follows: A - A#/Bb - B - B#/Cb - C - C#/Db - D - D#/Eb - E - E#/Fb - F - F#/Ab

[lemur821]

The 12-tone major scale approximates (poorly) a just intonation major scale. A JI scale constructed using simple ratios would include:
Octave = 2:1
Fifth = 3:2
Fourth = 4:3
Major third = 5:4
Root = 1:1

Those are the simplest five ratios, and you'll notice that the fourth and the major third are roughly a 12-tone semitone apart, leaving no room for a sharp or flat.

You might also notice that there's a huge gap between the fifth and the octave. If we throw another couple of notes in there, we're going to want the seventh to be around a semitone below the octave so we can use it as a leading tone. If we put a second and a sixth in the spaces, we get a scale that's fairly well filled in.

When we assign a letter to each note, the E-F interval and the B-C interval are small, and the others are large. Later on perhaps we decide we want another note in each of the big spaces, so we add sharps and flats, and we realize that our letters map pretty well onto a scale of 12 equal steps.

[Chipsonfire]

Originally Posted by lemur821

The 12-tone major scale approximates (poorly) a just intonation major scale. A JI scale constructed using simple ratios would include:
Octave = 2:1
Fifth = 3:2
Fourth = 4:3
Major third = 5:4
Root = 1:1

Those are the simplest five ratios, and you'll notice that the fourth and the major third are roughly a 12-tone semitone apart, leaving no room for a sharp or flat.

You might also notice that there's a huge gap between the fifth and the octave. If we throw another couple of notes in there, we're going to want the seventh to be around a semitone below the octave so we can use it as a leading tone. If we put a second and a sixth in the spaces, we get a scale that's fairly well filled in.

When we assign a letter to each note, the E-F interval and the B-C interval are small, and the others are large. Later on perhaps we decide we want another note in each of the big spaces, so we add sharps and flats, and we realize that our letters map pretty well onto a scale of 12 equal steps.

I knew there was some reason for it, and I was pretty sure it had to do with the "distance" between the intervals, I just couldn't remember. Thanks for the explanation

[uethanian]

it would probably be easier to think in terms of the circle of fifths.

but that probably doesnt answer your question either.

i think what you want to know is why the notes are named what they are. from what i understand, this goes back to the use of solfege instead of written notation (do re mi fa sol la ti do). notice there are seven tones, exluding the octave. in this system (which could be considered just intonation), there was no such thing as "mi flat." the interval itself was changed, to "ma" or "me." this was in the days before real chromaticism, so no matter what scale (or in this case, mode) you were playing in, there were only really seven notes, sticking to the basic format of solfege. then as notation came around, they found it to be easier to give the notes letter names, so they used seven letters to represent seven solfege tones. then sharps and flats came into play, and no one bothered to challenge the current notation system.

[louieeadg]

I like to think it has something to do with why "they that are them" named the concrete you drive on a 'parkway' and the concrete you park on a 'driveway'. Throw in one of Einstein's equations and you have your answer.

cheers

[Depth_Charge]

Wow! What a read!

I like to think "It just is" as I humbly try to remember where they are on the fretboard

[zac2944]

This thread blows my mind.

[Chipsonfire]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Wow! What a read!

I like to think "It just is" as I humbly try to remember where they are on the fretboard

lol There is almost always a reason for everything we do and, as an up and coming college student, it's my job to question it! Besides, sound is all mathematical so it only makes sense that there would be some sort of pattern that it follows and, as such, logical reasoning behind it. ;

[magnusdeus123]

I read an articles exactly like this on an Indian Guitar forum :

Full credit to 'kaiser' from IGT Forums (Indian Guitar Tabs) :

Originally Posted by magnusdeus123

The reason there is no B# and an E#

okay okay....i know this is technically in the wrong forum but it's trivial too, so i think it can be allowed to stay here in the ccl.

here goes: i knew the answer to what i asked sometime back bt the b# n e#....but i just wanted to shw off.....heheh...

here's the story, dont friggin close the thread, i hardly post good ****.

----------


long back when we didnt even have a scale, a couple of wise greeks including pythagoras (yeah that hypotenuse guy), find out that notes repeat in cycles.

they then decided to divide it (the gap between the octaves) into easily distinguishable notes n came up with the following number: 2^1/12

now when we take a note's frequency say 440 (the concert A) and multiply by this number, u get the next note....keep doing this n you land up at high A, the octave, at 880hz.

now when the greeks got 12 notes, they somehow thought of condensing this loong chromatic line of notes into a smaller chain n that which promises melody, they came up with the following 7 notes.

! @ # $ % ^ & * ------------>>(im not numbering them or naming
them for a reason.)
then they called it:

c d e f g a b c.

the step pattern being:

r t t st t t t st

where

r= root note
t= up 1 tone (eg d to e)
st= up 1 semitone (eg.d to d#)

*(ill contradict myself later, because im cutting down on some info to make this point easier to understand.)

now, AFTER naming the scale,, they thought okay, now lets name the main chromatic stuff too!


heres how u get the naming.....


the notes are : c x d x e f x g x a x b c

all the x's were called c# d# f# g# and a#... to sort of fit the progression. notice how they didnt need to name anything between b and c and between e and f. THe thing to note here is that: had they chosen some other step pattern instead to the one we got right now for the major scale, we wud have had some other notes that would have been without #'s.


its not that they didnt want to name it like abcdefghijkl. they might have. they just named the condensed scale first n then the chromatic n were left with no other choice but to use #'s for the remaining, in-between, unnamed notes. or maybe they deliberately didnt cuz they cdnt think of how to name the condensed scale if they names the chromatic scale abcdefghijkl. anyway u now know why there aint no b# and e#.

@sacchoooooooo, die, die you silly ass.

@and mod bhai: u shudnt be so rash in closin threads...that was MY thread..haha.

@bjr: yup, i knew bt the naming convention. i doubt people here know that. n if you're as pernickety abt theory as i am, i guess u'll appreciate the above posted tidbit....that somehow isnt talked bt or expplained anywhere....in fact i find it fascinating when i go back to musical history n find out how they came up with scales, modes, n stuff ladat.


there's one more interesting bit of trivia (this is the point where i said ill contradict):

the a minor scale was considered the main scale. then the dudes later thought, nah, minor is kinda sad lets consider the major pattern, the main scale. THUS the c major scale, which is a relative major of A minor... (they have the same step pattern.) is now considered a reference scale. if u see the numbering 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 anywhere in music, u know its the major scale...cus its the standard, all scales are compared to this scale for eg. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b is mixolydian.

whats so 'trivia' abt it? here: ppl keep asking why does the major scale go cdefgabc and not abcdefga...the main scale which was a minor, started with a, dude. in fact the naming of notes and the scale was done with A as root and not C....as i have (or not) illustrated in the eg above, where i pointed that id contradict myself....

phew...
__________________

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by Chipsonfire

lol There is almost always a reason for everything we do and, as an up and coming college student, it's my job to question it! Besides, sound is all mathematical so it only makes sense that there would be some sort of pattern that it follows and, as such, logical reasoning behind it. ;

One thing you will learn as you get wiser is the main reason "there must be a reason" is so frail minded people don't feel so lost about doing things they don't need to understand while still being proficient in doing something.