Will my piano knowledge help me play bass?

[Protoman2050]

Hi!

I recently bought a Tanglewood REB MBK LH electric bass package (includes a Hiwatt Maxwatt Hurricaine 10W amp, bag, strap, headphones, and a tutorial book), since I decided to re-learn how to play an instrument, and I love listening to the bass and drum tracks of my favorite DM songs.

I used to play piano, but my teacher was more concerned about me memorizing songs than learning technique or theory. Luckily, I recently took a music theory elective class during my last year at a Californian community college before coming to the UK to study immunology. He reinforced my self-accquired music theory knowledge, and since he was a pro percussionist, he taught me more about rhythm in three months than I learned in my piano lessons.

For example, I can theoretically play an arpeggiated D minor chord in the root position without looking at the fretboard, since the strings are a 4th apart and each fret is a minor 2nd apart, so I'd play the 1st fret of the 4th string, 2nd fret of the 1st string, and 1st fret of the 2nd string.

Since a) there's an extraordinary lack of electric bassists here, and b) the electric bass is essentially a double bass turned sideways, perhaps I can offer one of the double bass students or professors at my university's music school to teach me for an X amount of money per hour per week.

They're pretty much the same instrument, except we play almost exclusively pizicatto (although arco is possible with a magnet), and we have frets to help in finding notes. Anything a double bassist can play an electric bassist should be able to play.

Thanks!

[KJung]

The simple answer is 'yes'.

Many years ago, I started out as a keyboard player. I had many years of classical training as a child. I spent the first few years of my 'gigging career' lugging around a Fender Rhodes and various other keyboards.

For some reason, I took to bass guitar the first time I picked one up, and since I could read both bass and treble clef, and had at least a basic concept of theory and harmony, and had basically been playing 'bass' with my left hand already, it was just a matter of transfering that theoretical knowledge to physical execution on the bass guitar. I was gigging within a year of the switch.

As a result, although I've never had great chops or outstanding talent on the instrument, I've worked steadily for almost 40 years now. The ability to read and execute charts by site, to read moderately well (and reading teble clef comes in handy on lead sheets sometimes), and to be able to hear changes reasonably well has resulted in me working more and better gigs than my inate ability would suggest.

One thing that is a MUST... take 6 months of lessons from an expert electric bassist to make sure you mechanics on the instrument are correct (i.e., alternating plucking fingers, and fretted hand position with your thumb perpendicular to the neck). If you get that nailed, you will find that you have a massive leg up on those that either start from scratch on bass, or move from guitar to bass IMO and IME.

Good luck!

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by KJung

The simple answer is 'yes'.

Many years ago, I started out as a keyboard player. I had many years of classical training as a child. I spent the first few years of my 'gigging career' lugging around a Fender Rhodes and various other keyboards.

For some reason, I took to bass guitar the first time I picked one up, and since I could read both bass and treble clef, and had at least a basic concept of theory and harmony, and had basically been playing 'bass' with my left hand already, it was just a matter of transfering that theoretical knowledge to physical execution on the bass guitar. I was gigging within a year of the switch.

As a result, although I've never had great chops or outstanding talent on the instrument, I've worked steadily for almost 40 years now. The ability to read and execute charts by site, to read moderately well (and reading teble clef comes in handy on lead sheets sometimes), and to be able to hear changes reasonably well has resulted in me working more and better gigs than my inate ability would suggest.

One thing that is a MUST... take 6 months of lessons from an expert electric bassist to make sure you mechanics on the instrument are correct (i.e., alternating plucking fingers, and fretted hand position with your thumb perpendicular to the neck). If you get that nailed, you will find that you have a massive leg up on those that either start from scratch on bass, or move from guitar to bass IMO and IME.

Good luck!

What about learning from a double bassist, and simply ask him to play everything he wants me to learn pizicatto? As I've said, there's a lack of pro electric bassists here (there's one nearby at the local conservatory, but his website is under construction, so I can't contact him), so a double bassist is my best hope.

Besides, if I manage to learn classical bass, I'd be in high demand for metal bands.

LOL, I once tried to learn guitar...failed b/c a) large group lesson's don't work for me, b) I'm left-handed and the teacher didn't notice I needed to restring mine, so my chords were mirror images, and c) acoustics are too bulky and have too high of an action for me to use comfortably.

[bassbrad]

Absolutely the more you know about music can directly translate to playing bass. Theory is an essential and the best way to learn it is at a keyboard because of it's range and chromatic layout. Understanding music structure and movement will allow you to expand the traditional role of the bass player and support the song better.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Protoman2050

What about learning from a double bassist, and simply ask him to play everything he wants me to learn pizicatto? As I've said, there's a lack of pro electric bassists here (there's one nearby at the local conservatory, but his website is under construction, so I can't contact him), so a double bassist is my best hope.

Besides, if I manage to learn classical bass, I'd be in high demand for metal bands.

That shouldn't be a problem. I actually use 'DB fingering' in first position given that my hands are relatively small. However, the mechanics on DB and EB are quite different. Just again make sure you have the thumb perpendicular to the neck. This is one of the major issues I see (and had the issue myself very early on) that causes problems down the road. When you don't really know what you are doing, and just grab that neck, your thumb tends to more toward a parallel position to the neck. That feels comfortable in the very early stages of playing, but is a DISASTER later on. Also, a disciplined two finger technique on your plucking hand is also key, which is not a typical DB type technique.

So, learning how to play bass 'musically', absolutely no issue. Just make sure you don't start bad habits physically that will result in massive woodshedding to fix years from now.

Good luck!

[williamk]

yes

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by KJung

That shouldn't be a problem. I actually use 'DB fingering' in first position given that my hands are relatively small. However, the mechanics on DB and EB are quite different. Just again make sure you have the thumb perpendicular to the neck. This is one of the major issues I see (and had the issue myself very early on) that causes problems down the road. When you don't really know what you are doing, and just grab that neck, your thumb tends to more toward a parallel position to the neck. That feels comfortable in the very early stages of playing, but is a DISASTER later on. Also, a disciplined two finger technique on your plucking hand is also key, which is not a typical DB type technique.

So, learning how to play bass 'musically', absolutely no issue. Just make sure you don't start bad habits physically that will result in massive woodshedding to fix years from now.

Good luck!

Do they make braces that can help keep your thumb perpendicular? Also, what kind of bad habits would result from not keeping it perpendicular?

Why exactly is DB pizicatto different from how EB is played? And why is DB fingering different...isn't it the same, except you have to memorize where the frets would be?

Good thing I now know chord voicing...it's f**king annoying when I'd play piano chords where you have to jump across the keyboard, like C to G. If the idiot composer inverted the G chord so B was in the bass (or the C chord so G was in the bass), I'd be a lot happier when playing that.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Protoman2050

Do they make braces that can help keep your thumb perpendicular? Also, what kind of bad habits would result from not keeping it perpendicular?

Why exactly is DB pizicatto different from how EB is played? And why is DB fingering different...isn't it the same, except you have to memorize where the frets would be?

Good thing I now know chord voicing...it's f**king annoying when I'd play piano chords where you have to make huge finger jumps, like C to G. If the idiot composer inverted the G chord so B was in the bass (or the C chord so G was in the bass), I'd be a lot happier when playing that.

No bracing needed. It really isn't a big deal UNLESS you start out wrong. The issue is that once you lock into that parallel thumb thing (you see a lot of the self taught rock guys playing that way), it is almost impossible to use the D and G string when playing a pattern in one position.

Try it sometime... try to play a simple C major scale in a single position (without moving your hand) with the thumb parallel to the neck, and then with your thumb perpendicular.

Again, I'm making too big of a deal about it in a way. However, if you start out wrong, you are sunk (assuming you want to play at a certain level). Once you get it, it is not big deal.

Regarding DB fingering, since those necks are so long, many players don't take advantage of the 4th, and use it to strengthen the 'little finger'. For the most part, to make the most efficient use of the smaller bass guitar neck (that 34 or 35" neck versus the 41" neck or whatever a DB typically is), you should be able to use all 4 fingers when fretting notes and playing (again, sometimes, with small hands, first position might be different).

My early formal bass lessons made use of the famous Rufus Reed book, and that fingering has kind of stuck with me.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by KJung

No bracing needed. It really isn't a big deal UNLESS you start out wrong. The issue is that once you lock into that parallel thumb thing (you see a lot of the self taught rock guys playing that way), it is almost impossible to use the D and G string when playing a pattern in one position.

Try it sometime... try to play a simple C major scale in a single position (without moving your hand) with the thumb parallel to the neck, and then with your thumb perpendicular.

Again, I'm making too big of a deal about it in a way. However, if you start out wrong, you are sunk (assuming you want to play at a certain level). Once you get it, it is not big deal.

Regarding DB fingering, since those necks are so long, many players don't take advantage of the 4th, and use it to strengthen the 'little finger'. For the most part, to make the most efficient use of the smaller bass guitar neck (that 34 or 35" neck versus the 41" neck or whatever a DB typically is), you should be able to use all 4 fingers when fretting notes and playing (again, sometimes, with small hands, first position might be different).

My early formal bass lessons made use of the famous Rufus Reed book, and that fingering has kind of stuck with me.

So, you're saying DBists don't use the 4th string, or don't use the 4th finger? Then how do they play certain notes?

Also, I'm still wondering why many intro music books don't use proper voice leading, as in that C-G progression I mentioned? C/G-G, or C-G/B would be much easier on the fingers. Even guitar books don't teach that until way late. This is why Alexi Laiho can shred like he does, he knows how to voice lead.

Let's say I manage to learn EB from a DBist, and I play EB like a DB, would that be problematic or sound bad?

[FretlessMainly]

I don't know what KJ meant, but it is common for double bassists to use a 1, 2, 4 fingering technique in the lower positions and a 1, 2, 3, 4 technique in the higher positions. Conversely, electric bassists typically use the one finger per fret technique across most of the fingerboard.

Regarding the pizzicato on a DB vs and electric bass, on DB, I generally use the side of my index finger and the tip of my middle finger. On electric bass, I use the tips of both.

There are complexities on DB that aren't quite as complex on electric bass. Scale length, action, and fingerboard radius are three. Keep in mind that there are a fair number of fretless electric bass players out there - so it's not always a difference between DB and electric. One thing that a teacher who plays DB exclusively may not be able to give you is advice on electric bass ergonomics - body position, bass height, neutral wrist positions, etc.

Lastly, being a player of DB, fretless electric and fretted electric, DB and electric bass are far more different that you seem to believe. The whole mental and physical approach is different and the quest for a certain sound is different (compare Gary Karr to Flea). A DB instructor might help you, but you'd still likely need a certain something from an electric player.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

I don't know what KJ meant, but it is common for double bassists to use a 1, 2, 4 fingering technique in the lower positions and a 1, 2, 3, 4 technique in the higher positions. Conversely, electric bassists typically use the one finger per fret technique across most of the fingerboard.

Regarding the pizzicato on a DB vs and electric bass, on DB, I generally use the side of my index finger and the tip of my middle finger. On electric bass, I use the tips of both.

There are complexities on DB that aren't quite as complex on electric bass. Scale length, action, and fingerboard radius are three. Keep in mind that there are a fair number of fretless electric bass players out there - so it's not always a difference between DB and electric. One thing that a teacher who plays DB exclusively may not be able to give you is advice on electric bass ergonomics - body position, bass height, neutral wrist positions, etc.

Lastly, being a player of DB, fretless electric and fretted electric, DB and electric bass are far more different that you seem to believe. The whole mental and physical approach is different and the quest for a certain sound is different (compare Gary Karr to Flea). A DB instructor might help you, but you'd still likely need a certain something from an electric player.

Yeah, I'm not saying they're the exact same instrument, but the skills are transferable, to a point. Essentially, I just need someone to make sure I'm playing musically okay. That's my concern.

[FretlessMainly]

Then yes, you should be able to gain some good info from a DB player. But what you posted here is a problem:

Originally Posted by Protoman2050

For example, I can theoretically play an arpeggiated D minor chord in the root position without looking at the fretboard, since the strings are a 4th apart and each fret is a minor 2nd apart, so I'd play the 1st fret of the 4th string, 2nd fret of the 1st string, and 1st fret of the 2nd string.

To avoid confusion, we generally refer to the strings by their pitch, not as first, second, etc. But either way you slice it, you can't get a root-position Dmin chord from what you posted above.

From low to high, the common tunings on a four-string bass are E, A, D, and G. Whether you meant the E string or the G string by "4th string," you get either an F or an Ab, 2nd fret of 1st string is either an F# or an A, and 1st fret of 2nd string is either Bb or Eb. So, let us get you on the right page here.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Then yes, you should be able to gain some good info from a DB player. But what you posted here is a problem:



To avoid confusion, we generally refer to the strings by their pitch, not as first, second, etc. But either way you slice it, you can't get a root-position Dmin chord from what you posted above.

From low to high, the common tunings on a four-string bass are E, A, D, and G. Whether you meant the E string or the G string by "4th string," you get either an F or an Ab, 2nd fret of 1st string is either an F# or an A, and 1st fret of 2nd string is either Bb or Eb. So, let us get you on the right page here.

Oh, right! This is the fingering:

1st fret of D string, 2nd fret of E string, 1st fret of A string.

[FretlessMainly]

Well, you would be better served to list your strings in order of ascending pitch. In any case, you've given us Eb, Gb, and Bb.

[Duckwater]

Yes. I think anyone who is serious about music should learn keys. I need to do this myself.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by Duckwater

Yes. I think anyone who is serious about music should learn keys. I need to do this myself.

Ok, so it would be: open D string, 1st fret E string, open A string?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

I don't know what KJ meant, but it is common for double bassists to use a 1, 2, 4 fingering technique in the lower positions and a 1, 2, 3, 4 technique in the higher positions. Conversely, electric bassists typically use the one finger per fret technique across most of the fingerboard.

Regarding the pizzicato on a DB vs and electric bass, on DB, I generally use the side of my index finger and the tip of my middle finger. On electric bass, I use the tips of both.

There are complexities on DB that aren't quite as complex on electric bass. Scale length, action, and fingerboard radius are three. Keep in mind that there are a fair number of fretless electric bass players out there - so it's not always a difference between DB and electric. One thing that a teacher who plays DB exclusively may not be able to give you is advice on electric bass ergonomics - body position, bass height, neutral wrist positions, etc.

Lastly, being a player of DB, fretless electric and fretted electric, DB and electric bass are far more different that you seem to believe. The whole mental and physical approach is different and the quest for a certain sound is different (compare Gary Karr to Flea). A DB instructor might help you, but you'd still likely need a certain something from an electric player.

+1 to every point, and your explanation of the fingering is much better than mine

[FretlessMainly]

It's pretty clear that you don't know the fingerboard yet, and that's cool. But it's also clear that you need some theory too. To play a root-position Dmin chord, (or better yet, triad), the notes would be D, F, A. To put the triad in root position, the open D string is the root and the F and the A need to be stacked above the root.

So, the most simple fingering would be open D, 3rd fret of the D string for the F and 2nd fret G string for the A. Since you are playing three notes on two strings, you cant really play it as a chord, but only as an arpeggio.

[Protoman2050]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

It's pretty clear that you don't know the fingerboard yet, and that's cool. But it's also clear that you need some theory too. To play a root-position Dmin chord, (or better yet, triad), the notes would be D, F, A. To put the triad in root position, the open D string is the root and the F and the A need to be stacked above the root.

So, the most simple fingering would be open D, 3rd fret of the D string for the F and 2nd fret G string for the A. Since you are playing three notes on two strings, you cant really play it as a chord, but only as an arpeggio.

I think its more trying to translate my music theory over. I know Dmin is DFA. And, yes I would play it as an arpeggio. Chords don't sound nice that low.

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes and let's get down to the fundamentals.

Bass is an accompaniment instrument in the rhythm section. We play chord tones. How many of them is the point of this post. Say we have a Cmaj7 chord active in the song what can we play under that chord?

Notes of the cord; one note at a time. OK the Cmaj7 is made up of the R-3-5-7 notes of the C major scale. How many of those chord tones will be needed? That depends on the song. Start with the root (4/4 time and quarter notes) C-C-C-C and if you need more add the 5 (C-G-C-G). If a R-5 bass line is not sufficient think about adding the 7 and or 3. Is there more, of course.

Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
The "Box" can help you get started.  Place the R over a C note on your fretboard
and the C major scale awaits you.  Use the R-3-5-7 notes of that scale and 
you've made a good bass line for the Cmaj7 chord.

Here are some generic notes for your bass lines. Think how, in playing the piano, your left hand has been doing this all the time, i.e. forming "frozen hand patterns". We use the same patterns just play them one note at a time.

• The root, five and eight are generic and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
• The 3 is generic to all major chords. See a major chord R-3-5-8 is a generic 4/4 bass line that will work.
• The b3 is generic to all minor chords. See a minor chord R-b3-5-8 is a generic bass line that will work.
• The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. R-3-5-7.
• The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. R-3-5-b7 or R-b3-5-b7.
• The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. I like R-3-5-6 for major chords. Has a great sound.
• The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
• In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
• Remember roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 will play a lot of bass.

The beat and the groove are more important than the actual notes used. Normally less is more. We provide the bottom end. Norah Jones - Cold Cold Heart - YouTube After seeing that video it all fell into line.

Good luck with your bass.