Working with "enharmonics"..

goolimari · #1 09-26-2007, 12:04 PM

Hello all,

I am having big time trouble working with enharmonics..

I am trying to follow the advice of "play everything in all keys", and am currently learning the simple I IV V blues progression in all keys.

I am working on the F# keys, and i am kinda confused here..

the I IV V for the F# would be F#, B, C#. Now i have learnt my keys based on the "Circles of Fifths" and for me C# is Db. Also, i have learnt the Arpeggios for the Db chord (Db - F - Ab).

I am in a fix as to how to think about the F# blues progression..Do I go

F# F# F# F#
B B F# F#
C# B F# F#

OR do i go

F# F# F# F#
B B F# F#
Db B F# F#

Is there something i am missing out here or is my question is, you know, stupid?..

-gooli

DocBop · #2 09-26-2007, 01:27 PM

C# and Db are the same pitch and sometime saying or thinking in an enharmonic is simpler. Like I would do this in Gb versus F# because IMO Gb is easier key to think in because it has less accidentals.

But when dealing from a theory standand point there are times when using enharmonics is wrong to do. So your progression should use C# not Db. The reason is C# is the 5th letter name in F# scale and you are writing a I IV V progression. D is the 6th letter name in F# scale so technically Db would not be the V, but a double-flatted 6 degree. In theory the letter name need to match the number of the scale degree being discussed.

**Marcus Willett** · #3 09-26-2007, 01:30 PM

Yes, except Gb and F# both have 6 accidentals. I do find it easier to "think" in Gb tho.

goolimari · #4 09-26-2007, 01:31 PM

Suppose i am in A scale and want the iii chord (which would be C# minor), what do i do then?..

Deacon_Blues · #5 09-26-2007, 01:35 PM

Rule #1 here is to avoid mixing #'s and b's. Second, for the sake of simplicity is to choose the key that has fewer of these sharps or flats. For instance the key of Db has fewer flats (5) than the key of C# has sharps (7). I'm not too good at this either so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Thought it would be a good idea to post this here also:

Deacon_Blues · #6 09-26-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goolimari

Suppose i am in A scale and want the iii chord (which would be C# minor), what do i do then?..

A is a key using sharps, so you should use C# minor here.

**Marcus Willett** · #7 09-26-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

A is a key using sharps, so you should use C# minor here.

Almost. You would use C# phrygian; which is a minor scale (b3rd) but since we're in A, the second note would be a D natural not a D# (as would be the case with a "regular" C# minor scale; the parent key for that being E, as shown in the wheel)

lowb1970 · #8 09-26-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goolimari

Suppose i am in A scale and want the iii chord (which would be C# minor), what do i do then?..

Well, I would just play a c#m (c#,e, g#)...but that's just me!

In the key of A you have the following notes:
A b c# D E f# g#o and A
To construct a chord in a key you take the starting note and then go up in 3rds using the key signature of that key. A Major has 3 #'s (F# C# G#)
Using enharmonics is cool if you prefer to play the key of C# in Db, but you still have to know how to construct the diatonic(relative to the key your playing in) chords in that key to be effective as a bass player. There are many great books out there for teaching this kind of thing, but the best way is to find a qualified "bass" teacher and have help along the way. Keep working at it and you will be playing all the chords in no time.

To expand a little on this I will use your key in your example:
A
Notes in scale: A b c# D E f# g# A
I, IV, V are all major
ii, iii, vi are all minor
vii is diminished

Basic chords (triads) constructed in this key:
A C# E
b d f#
c# e g#
D F# A
E G# B
f# a c#
g# b d
A C# E

I would suggest writing these out on paper for all the keys (writing both F#& Gb, C# & Db, G# & Ab). Then you will have a reference of how to play these chords in any key.

I hope this helps you out a little. Keep practicing

Liko · #9 09-26-2007, 01:53 PM

In general, think sharp when you're in a sharp key, and think flat when you're in a flat key. And definitely don't mix accidentals in one chord (flat this note, sharp that note; just don't do it, piano players and guitarists alike will kill you).

There are exceptions, mostly for simplicity (when writing music you generally want to do so with as few accidentals as possible; if one sharp in a flat key accomplishes what would otherwise take two naturals and a flat, use the sharp), but in general you should refer to a note by whatever is proper for the key you're in.

I generally refer to most enharmonics by their "flat" name because I used to play in high school band, where the key in concert pitch is usually at least Bb so the saxophones and trumpets don't have to read five sharps. Four and five flats were not uncommon; four and five sharps were far less common. F#/Gb and C#/Db are pretty easy for me to think of in either sense, but A#? No, it's Bb all day long, I don't care if we're in the key of B.

**Marcus Willett** · #10 09-26-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowb1970

There are many great books out there for teaching this kind of thing

Yes, and the good news is that it's a finite amount of information. It's like remembering your multiplication tables up to 12. Once you're done, you're done.

lowb1970 · #11 09-26-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Yes, and the good news is that it's a finite amount of information. It's like remembering your multiplication tables up to 12. Once you're done, you're done.

Agreed! That's why I say the best way is a qualified "Bass" teacher

Deacon_Blues · #12 09-26-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Almost. You would use C# phrygian; which is a minor scale (b3rd) but since we're in A, the second note would be a D natural not a D# (as would be the case with a "regular" C# minor scale; the parent key for that being E, as shown in the wheel)

Agreed the scale would be C# phrygian, but he asked for the chord and then C#m is a better choice than Dbm.

goolimari · #13 09-26-2007, 03:10 PM

damn! i did memorize all 12 keys and chord forms for those keys (major, minor, dominant, diminisned).

now i have to work out the enharmonics too. damn damn damn damn.

DocBop · #14 09-26-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Yes, except Gb and F# both have 6 accidentals. I do find it easier to "think" in Gb tho.

From what I learned in the past it depends on your background on if you prefer sharps or flats. I know as a guitar player I prefered sharp keys, but probably because I played in them more often. It was said those brought playing in beginning band and orchestra with brass and winds tend to like flats more than sharps. Since switching to bass and playing more big band and Jazz I prefer flat keys. So guess what we spend our time with is what we prefer.

DocBop · #15 09-26-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goolimari

damn! i did memorize all 12 keys and chord forms for those keys (major, minor, dominant, diminisned).

now i have to work out the enharmonics too. damn damn damn damn.

Now sit down and relax. If you learned all twelve keys you have done it already.

funkydanbass · #16 09-26-2007, 09:02 PM

I find that learning the rules is great for a point of departure. All of the enharmonic and diatonic modal scale/chord relationships are important, but understanding it for yourself, (at the drop of a hat), is most important. Re: your blues example. Keep in mind that these are most likely dominant chords and you might not think of these changes modally, certainly not as diatonic.

Try not to think of C#m and Dbm as two sepaerate things!!