Working with Guitarists

[DudeistMonk]

So me and a drummer I've been playing with brought in a guitarist last night who plays a mix of lead and rhythm, my question is about the rhythm part...

/*begin long winded background story*/

So I ask the guitarist for the chords of song he wrote and he starts spouting about about 20 chords, and I was like "hold on write those down" and he does. I was fine with it for the first section, I could clearly hear each change, I knew what was up, it was even starting to get groovy on my end.... As the song progressed though I was not able to keep up at all, the chords where changing what seemed like irregularly, I had no clue what was going on and I had to drop out.

/*end long winded background story*/

Now the thing is I've worked with a rhythm guitarist maybe twice in my life, and my instructor mentioned something about them putting extra chords within a bar that aren't really part of the progression that I would follow, but we didn't get too in depth. I don't have another lesson until next Wednesday, and I have another jam with a different guitarist coming up before then so I was hoping someone could shed some light on this in the mean time.

Can anyone give me some insight into the mind of a rhythm guitarist?

How can I tell what chord is at the top of the bar, when I have a list like this A B A C# F# A B C# (well not that I just threw some random notes on the page)?

Will playing the chord at the top of the bar even work (considering I doubt he took the bass player into account when he wrote the song)?

Should I just learn his line and root him?

Is there anything I should listen too that will help me get a better grasp on this idea?

Is playing a bassline to a song like this on the fly something that would be expected of me by most musicians, or is it more of a "give me a recording and a chord chart and I will go home and figure this out" kinda thing?

[Joel S.]

Kinda like a less fun version of bass.

Seriously, there are songs I've played where the guitarist does a quick change that really isn't integral to the song, just adds feel. Like how you may lean on the IV of one chord to setup another. In those cases I only follow the quick change if I absolutely have to for the line to sound right.

When I was tasked with learning songs with this new band I'm in, the guitarist put together a chord chart for me. Some of the songs have what seems like an endless stream of chords, but when I sat down and worked it through they made sense. Also, he gave me a CD so I could follow the changes.

[Cernael]

I tend to get annoyed by that too. When I write down chords for others, I do my best to get the rhythms, too. Even if it's just "So and so many bars of this, so and so many bars of that".

Or rather, when I'm in your situation; go through it slowly, TELL me how it goes, I'LL write it down.

[capnsandwich]

I play with a keyboard player that's similar to your guitarist and a guitarist who likes to play around with chord changes. IME and IMO, sometimes in those situations where I can't figure out where he's going I just play the root, until I can finally see a pattern in the song and get the groove down. With busy music like that, the bassist's role is to hold down the fort while everyone else has fun. I know it gets boring but the overall song will sound better as long as it's tastefully played and everyone knows their role. Go to my band's myspace page and listen to the sound clip "believe it". You'll have to turn up your speakers but you can kind of see what I'm talking about.

[DocBop]

the chart should have the basic changes that go with the melody. Would be common to have one, two, or four chords in the bar. If no rhythm should start by assuming they are all on downbeats. if three chords then slashes should be there to tell you which chord hit on what beats. If there is a syncopation to the rhythm there should be at least a simple slash representation of the rhythm and which chords fall on which beats.

The chordal player are probably playing more chords than written, chord fills and so on. You don't and probably shouldn't follow each little chord in that situation. Play the chords on the chart. Chordal player will depend on your root notes so they can play partial chords or moving voices while you pedal a bass note.

Bottom line you have to keep your ears open and decide what fits. Then if not sure ask.

[envika]

USE YO' EARS!

even if you can't do it 100% by ear, do as much by ear as you can. it'll be helpful in many situations when you're given bad charts etc.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by DocBop

the chart should have the basic changes that go with the melody.

+100

Ask for the charts before you get together so you can come up with a bass line (practice) for the the song before you get together (rehearsal)

With the basic chords written over the lyrics/melody, then you have something to work with.

I know "Chicago" is old school, but if you listen to their first album, you can hear the guitar go from lead, to rhythm, to syncopated rhythm, to background chords and back, all in the same song. All the while, the bass line, while following the basic chords, is unique for the song. I suggest listening to it with headphones and tweak the e.q. to bring out the rhythm parts (keyboards included). It's very enlightening.

[DudeistMonk]

I know "Chicago" is old school, but if you listen to their first album, you can hear the guitar go from lead, to rhythm, to syncopated rhythm, to background chords and back, all in the same song. All the while, the bass line, while following the basic chords, is unique for the song. I suggest listening to it with headphones and tweak the e.q. to bring out the rhythm parts (keyboards included). It's very enlightening.

I have a three disk set somewhere 25 or 6 to 4 made me want to buy it, lol. The rest of the album is good but not what I was expecting, I'll keep that in mind and listen to it again.

The chordal player are probably playing more chords than written, chord fills and so on. You don't and probably shouldn't follow each little chord in that situation. Play the chords on the chart. Chordal player will depend on your root notes so they can play partial chords or moving voices while you pedal a bass note.

This is pretty much what my instructor said the other day... I just need to sit down and work with the guitar player and figure out a more detailed chart then.

USE YO' EARS!

even if you can't do it 100% by ear, do as much by ear as you can. it'll be helpful in many situations when you're given bad charts etc.

Workin on it, getting better, not there yet.

Thanks a lot for all the tips guys, I'm still trying to figure out what is expected of me when playing with a guitar, and what I can take home to work on, I think progressions like this are take home and work on
for me.

-Chris

[SpectorBass308]

I think its a feel thing. You might have to sit back and just listen and really feel whats supposed to be happening in the song. Try to hear the groove in your head first kind of thing.

[JazzBass Love]

I think that a decent chart from the guitarist would be nice, but ultimately you need to count on playing by ear and following your gut feelings. The ear will come with time, as will the instincts of knowing what you should and shouldn't play.

Until you can throw something together by ear, I recommend playing along the root notes. Boring? Yes. But if you follow the roots (with a few tasteful deviations) you will at least help to hold the groove down.

[Lefty Geek]

The guitar doesn't dictate what the chord is, the bass does!