writing basslines without theory knowledge

angrysammo · #1 10-01-2009, 07:29 PM

what do you guys reckon. I have very basic theory knowledge thanks to the internet (i.e. roots, scales, and just recently I learned that playing the triads in the chord of the root is a good option), and have just joined my friends' band as bassist. Is it going to be possible or am I going to fail miserably? I have already written a bassline for one song just using the chord notes, which worked out alright, but I'm sort of sceptical about the future. we play sort of rock mixed with pop punk, so is there anything that I should know that could keep me above the surface? I don't mind those ska basslines that apparently consist of triads and sevenths that rancid does so well.

oh and p.s. I consider myself creative, so I think that if I'm loaded with the basics, my creativity mixed with the ease of guitar pro should do the rest

msabp · #2 10-01-2009, 07:49 PM

If you don't have the theory knowledge the best tool at your disposal (and the best tool if you do know your theory) is your ears. You should play what sounds good. Experiment and don't be afraid to fail, try out new things. Don't over play. Generally speaking, for a bass line you want to play the minimal necessary amount. You can't make a huge impact with very little. Listen to bass players that you like and figure out what they're doing. The question your asking is totally loaded and it opens up a can of worms. "How to write a bass line" is not something that can be answered in a single posting on a bass forum. Just do your thing... you'll get it eventually. Lastly: always use your ears!

MarkTAW · #3 10-01-2009, 07:50 PM

I think you could pull it off.

Just remember to "land" on notes you're comfortable with when you experiment.

Record the rehearsals & play along at home regularly, that'll help you.

angrysammo · #4 10-01-2009, 08:11 PM

is bouncing around the triads a good idea?

EADG mx · #5 10-02-2009, 01:51 PM

You might want to try singing the line (or the changes first)

Carol Kaye has a lot of great information about bassline construction on her website. You might have to take it with a grain of salt, though.

http://www.carolkaye.com/www/education/tips1.htm

Take from this what you can.

mambo4 · #6 10-02-2009, 02:35 PM

You know enough to start. The secret is It's 85%+ root notes for most of us.

If you know enough to play the roots of the chord, and triad tones, you can let your ears lead you for the notes you choose to "connect the dots". Some will just sound better than others.

What further theory study will do is help you understand how those note choices relate to the chord, and what further desirable choices might be implied. (after a long stretch of utter confusion and 6 page TB theory wank debates)

Also stay aware of your sense of rhythm and feel!
All roots with feeling is better than modal wankery with none.

MalcolmAmos · #7 10-02-2009, 04:48 PM

All you need is a couple of riffs built on chord tones and pick one that works with the song that is being played - stick with it through out the song and change when the chords change.

Here are some easy riffs to get you started:
Root nothing just the root.
Root 5 - the 5th is up a string from the root note and over two frets.
Root 3-5-3 - the 3rd is up a string from the root note and back one fret.
Here is the bass fretboard. If the root is C where is G, the 5th? Yep up one and over two.
http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/basschart.htm Find the 3rd of C, I bet it will be up one and back one. Find where your 2, 4, 6 and 7 are on the fretboard and that is all the theory you need to play a bunch of songs. And yes the 2 will always be 2 frets from the root, find the rest, they will always be in the same spot relative to the root.

Here are some blues backing tracks to play with. Why blues, well the chord progression is predictable -- so you get used to hearing the chord changes. That is perhaps the most important thing we have to work on. Hearing the chord changes and reacting to them. I bet your buddy is playing from fake chord sheet music, sneak a peek at the chord changes he is using.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUK5p...eature=related
That is the classic 12 bar blues progression that will let you jamm to most blues songs. Notice the other backing tracks listed on the right hand side of the screen - help yourself.

See if you can follow the chord changes on this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgr1U...eature=related

Grab a Root and keep it till the chord changes. When that is easy then move to the R-5.
Then try a Root 5 and change when the chord changes.

IMHO - get the basics chord tones down first. Enough there to keep you busy for quite some time (R-3-5-7 or perhaps R-R-3-3-5-5-6-5). Then look at pentatonic riffs, any more that that you just do not have the space. Leave modes for your lead break.

If you have not found this:
http://www.studybass.com/
IMHO one of the better free lessons available.

Have fun.

Chris K · #8 10-03-2009, 03:09 AM

IMHO (again) it's essential to develop your ability to play melodies. Simple songs you already know. Learn to transmit your music from brain to bass in one go. Remember that knowing theory and chords is important, but theory is a tool. Nothing more.

Fergie Fulton · #9 10-05-2009, 03:39 AM

LOL, hi angrysammo, this type of question always makes me laugh.
The reason for theory is to explain music to other like minded souls with the same knowledge. If it sounds good and it compliments the song use it because its right. Remember, as a rule, the people you are playing to have no understanding of theory, so if they like your music, you're on to a winner. Next time you ask someone about their favorite song, theory will not come in to it for them, and if you try and explain the theory to them watch them glaze over lol

Use what feels right and if you want to understand it , base any theory on understanding what you wrote, rather than using theory to write at this point.

#10 10-05-2009, 04:12 AM

There is no theory that creates good music. Creativity comes from your unconscious mind. You can use theory to explain to others, as the last poster said, or to fill in the gaps of an idea, but no good ideas ever came from painting by numbers. Some people do compose entirely from theory and you can tell because their music sounds absolutely awful. Theory can push you creativity in different directions and open up the resources available to you, but when it comes to having your own voice on an instrument, this is a separate issue to theory, and theory isn't a substitute more of something that runs in parallel. Flea went most of his career without learning 'theory' (in his own words).

Joe Nerve · #11 10-05-2009, 04:25 AM

Writing great music and basslines has nothing to do with reading and theory. It takes time, practice, experience, and talent. Some are born with it, some have to work at it.

MalcolmAmos · #12 10-05-2009, 05:26 AM

If you are still checking the string.... Not everyone learns the same way. There are some sensor feeler people that hate the detail and theory is not their bag. They rely upon; if it sounds good it is good. Can not fault this approach and that group of people do tend to feel the music and make great artists.

Then there are others that need to know what they are doing before they do it. The analytical, controlling group, and yes those have to work at being creative, but, it does happen. Engineers fall into this group. Should engineers shy away from playing music? Not if they enjoy it.

Some make a living from their music. Some need a day job. Some are visual learners, some learn aural. Again helps to know what group you fall into.

If you know theory and have a creative mind - best of both worlds.

Jake of Bass · #13 10-05-2009, 06:22 AM

Just use your ears, all the theory in the world can be kinda redundant if you have no sense of music.

Rickett Customs · #14 10-05-2009, 06:43 AM

It can be achieved (not knowing theory), however, having knowledge of theory, or at least a good idea of music theory will help out tremendously and may also prevent you from "stumbling and bumbling". IME, knowing theory will make you more proficient in writing. I'm not saying it's a requirement, but I've always learned that the more tools you have at your disposal, the easier it will be to overcome new challenges.

Michael Case · #15 10-05-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msabp

If you don't have the theory knowledge the best tool at your disposal (and the best tool if you do know your theory) is your ears. You should play what sounds good. Experiment and don't be afraid to fail, try out new things. Don't over play. Generally speaking, for a bass line you want to play the minimal necessary amount. You can't make a huge impact with very little. Listen to bass players that you like and figure out what they're doing. The question your asking is totally loaded and it opens up a can of worms. "How to write a bass line" is not something that can be answered in a single posting on a bass forum. Just do your thing... you'll get it eventually. Lastly: always use your ears!

This is great advice, I'd like to add this too. Just start to learn more theory, get a book, take some lessons. Plus as you learn more, don't let it inhibit your intuition. If you've been doing well by ear just use the theory to further inform your ear.

I hope this make sense.

sleeplessknight · #16 10-07-2009, 09:27 AM

Music is a language. You don't need an English degree to be able to communicate, and your lack of theory shouldn't be a problem to your ability to create good, groovy bass lines. Theory is great, don't get me wrong, and I'm a huge proponent of picking up as much as you feel you can handle.

Long story short, there are 12 notes (in Western music), no more, no less. Theory helps you group those notes into different containers and hopefully will make things EASIER for you, but it is not a prerequisite to being a good bassist and functioning well within a given song. It's also great when trying to communicate ideas quickly to other musicians non-musically (i.e. via talking about it), among other things that are best left to other threads.

LaklandBass · #17 10-07-2009, 09:51 AM

Theory is basically knowing what things are called. I played root-5th lines alot in my old band when I was 16. I loved the root-5th-7th-octave thing as well. I didnt know what any of it was called or how it fit into theory but i still knew that it sounded good. my point is that you probably already play theory you just dont know it. not to sound lame but ya know that quote about a rose by any other name? just write what you feel sounds good and go from there. my one bit of advice is this....
listen to a song that you like.... then learn the guitar line, yes the guitar line. not bass. now that you know what the guitarist played listen to the bassline and ask yourself how the bass player came up with his line. learn the bass line and compare the two. this is what I did when I was starting out. i would listen to faith no more and pearl jam and then think "man, how did they come up with those lines? then i would try to play with the lines in my band and see what i could come up with. what helps a ton is either having a super patient guitarist or having a cheap recording of the guitar lines for use at home. either way youll have plenty of time to hear that guitar part over and over so you can try all of the possibilities on bass.

bassman1987 · #18 10-07-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alembicplyr

It can be achieved (not knowing theory), however, having knowledge of theory, or at least a good idea of music theory will help out tremendously and may also prevent you from "stumbling and bumbling". IME, knowing theory will make you more proficient in writing. I'm not saying it's a requirement, but I've always learned that the more tools you have at your disposal, the easier it will be to overcome new challenges.

I agree, while you certainly don't HAVE to know theory to create good, interesting bass lines, the more theory you know the easier the process will become. In addition, if you ever find yourself playing any sort of improvised music (even if it's just varying the bass lines you've written) having knowledge of theory will help you immensely. You'll be able to add other chord tones, scale tones, etc. to your lines on the fly, and they will end up sounding much more interesting.

lopxtc · #19 10-08-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Then there are others that need to know what they are doing before they do it. The analytical, controlling group, and yes those have to work at being creative, but, it does happen. Engineers fall into this group. Should engineers shy away from playing music? Not if they enjoy it.

Ugh this is so me LOL ... an ironically enough, Im an IT engineer

.

My band will tell you my ears are not the best and just jamming on a riff in our studio I will always feel a little behind the rest ...

However give me a lead sheet and my bass lines (while simple) will be spot on and groove well with the drummer and the song.

Aaron

MalcolmAmos · #20 10-08-2009, 08:52 AM

I know it's a curse we live with. I have two dominant personality traits. Sensor Feeler and Controller.

The controller in me wants lead sheets, baselines and I must know what I'm doing and why.

The Sensor Feeler side of me looses the sheet music, even if I take it, I can not find it when I need it.

O'h well we cope.