X6 chords (eg C6, etc) - spelling and supporting

[moley]

Originally posted by peteroberts
coupla questions on this stuff:


What is the difference? The only way I could differentiate the two would be to say not to play a seventh on an Am chord.

That's right. Am implies an A Minor triad - A C E. Of course, in Jazz, you're not so likely to play it as just a triad In this case, you'd add a minor 7th, maybe a 9th etc. If it were a I chord in a minor key, you might add a 6th, or a major 7th, 9th etc.

I know that C6 is not the same as C13 really, but when I see C13, I think C7/13 (dominant triad with the 13th). Not the same for C6? Should it acutally be notated Cmaj6?

As a general rule, numbers below 6 imply major (i.e. chord function is I), and numbers 7 and above imply dominant 7th (i.e. chord function V).

C13 means a dominant 7th chord with 9th & 13th. Whether you include the 9th is at your discretion. So, if you ask me, the chord symbol C7/13 is redundant - C13 covers it.

C6 implies a major triad with added 6th. It functions as a I chord, it's formed from the Ionian mode.

No, it should not actually be notated Cmaj6. I guess you *could* it that, but it's entirely unnecessary, and I've never seen it done, so it might well just confuse people. They might assume you mean Cmaj7(add6) or something, because the maj part implies maj7.

[peteroberts]

thanks for clearing that up!

[wulf]

Originally posted by Mike Dimin
The C6 is a substitute for a Cmaj7. It is used when the root (C) is in the melody so you don't have the 1/2 step clash between the B of the Cmaj7 chord and the melody note C

You know what this means? As soon as I get home, I'll be experimenting with C6 vs Cmaj7 for those first couple of bars and listening out for the clash

BTW, I walked back to work reading All of Me out of the New Real Book, so it's sitting on my desk. Being ever the sceptic, I've turned to the next song (All the Things You Are, another standard of fairly similar vintage) to check the theory out.

I can find a couple of examples of the melody playing the root note with a maj7 chord supporting (G against Gmaj7 both times - bar 16 of the A section and bar 4 of the B section) but these are both on the third beat of the bar (ie. not the strongest position) and I can see how that dissonance works at that point in the song. And then, in bar 11 of the C section, a sweeter, more sentimental mood, we've got Ab in the melody and that's being played against Ab6 rather than Abmaj7.

It's helpful to find an example where you can see a theory at work - based on what was said earlier in the discussion, I'd assume that more recent songs are more likely to make use of root note in the melody against the maj7? (it's not a bug, it's a feature!)

Wulf

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by wulf

BTW, I walked back to work reading All of Me out of the New Real Book, so it's sitting on my desk. Being ever the sceptic, I've turned to the next song (All the Things You Are, another standard of fairly similar vintage) to check the theory out.

I can find a couple of examples of the melody playing the root note with a maj7 chord supporting (G against Gmaj7 both times - bar 16 of the A section and bar 4 of the B section) but these are both on the third beat of the bar (ie. not the strongest position) and I can see how that dissonance works at that point in the song. And then, in bar 11 of the C section, a sweeter, more sentimental mood, we've got Ab in the melody and that's being played against Ab6 rather than Abmaj7.

Wulf

That GMaj7 is supporting the B in the melody since for the most part in ATTYR, the chord to melody note relationship is a third.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally posted by moley




C6 implies a major triad with added 6th. It functions as a I chord, it's formed from the Ionian mode.

Another intresting thing is, I've always been taught when I come across a min6th that the actual 6th should be played major. For instance, if I see a Cm6, it should be played, C, Eb, G, A. Obviously, if you were basing the chord off of an aeloion or melodic minor scale, the A should be flat. I guess maybe they are basing it off of the harmonic minor scale? It just strikes me odd though, because when someone says Cm7, you are flatting the 7th (the chord extension the name is implying) along with the 3rd.

[moley]

Originally posted by LiquidMidnight


Another intresting thing is, I've always been taught when I come across a min6th that the actual 6th should be played major.

Yes, that's true - m6 chords come from the melodic minor rather than harmonic/aeolian.

For instance, if I see a Cm6, it should be played, C, Eb, G, A.

Exactly.

Obviously, if you were basing the chord off of an aeloion or melodic minor scale, the A should be flat. I guess maybe they are basing it off of the harmonic minor scale?

Wrong way round. If it were harmonic it'd be flat, but it's melodic, so it's not. You knew that, though, it was just a typo

It just strikes me odd though, because when someone says Cm7, you are flatting the 7th (the chord extension the name is implying) along with the 3rd.

Yes, I do see where you're coming from. In many ways, we're working with a flawed system here - you just have to know how it works.

When you see Cm6, or C-6 it's a minor triad with major 6th. According to Levine, if you see C-(b6) or somesuch, it's a minor triad with a minor 6th. This makes sense, but I've never ever seen C-(b6) (or anything equivalent) written. Generally, IME, you don't get a minor chord with an added minor 6th. If you do get that configuration of notes, then it's a maj7 chord. For example, instead of C-(b6), it's Abmaj7/C.

[Pacman]

Originally posted by LiquidMidnight


Another intresting thing is, I've always been taught when I come across a min6th that the actual 6th should be played major. For instance, if I see a Cm6, it should be played, C, Eb, G, A. Obviously, if you were basing the chord off of an aeloion or melodic minor scale, the A should be flat. I guess maybe they are basing it off of the harmonic minor scale? It just strikes me odd though, because when someone says Cm7, you are flatting the 7th (the chord extension the name is implying) along with the 3rd.

That's because whenever you see minor (or it's abbreviations) in a chord symbol, it's referencing the 3rd (unless specifically stated)and otherwise the 3rd is assumed major. When major (or abbreviation) is used, it's specifically addressing the 7th. Otherwise the 7th is assumed dominant. Ergo: Cm7=C Eb G Bb; Cmaj7=C E G B; Cmin(maj7)=C Eb G B; C7=C E G Bb

[LiquidMidnight]

Damn me and my constant melodic and harmonic minor confuzzlements.

Originally posted by moley


Generally, IME, you don't get a minor chord with an added minor 6th. If you do get that configuration of notes, then it's a maj7 chord. For example, instead of C-(b6), it's Abmaj7/C.

Very true, but by doing that, you may be changing the function of the harmony.

[moley]

Originally posted by LiquidMidnight
Very true, but by doing that, you may be changing the function of the harmony.

Yes, but generally, when you see that chord played, it's functioning as an Abmaj7 chord anyway, I'd say. So, in that case, to call it Cm(b6) would be changing the function.

I'm not sure what function a m(b6) chord would have anyway - presumably I in a minor key. Either way, it's not common.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by moley


Yes, but generally, when you see that chord played, it's functioning as an Abmaj7 chord anyway, I'd say. So, in that case, to call it Cm(b6) would be changing the function.

I'm not sure what function a m(b6) chord would have anyway - presumably I in a minor key. Either way, it's not common.

Well, I have seen those m(b6), and I don't think you can simply say they're equivalent to Abmaj7/C, even if the notes are the same. They're often voiced differently and just feel and sound differently, for lack of a more precise description. The scribe very often chose to write them as some form of Cm because in that setting just seem to have more essence of C minor than essence of Ab, if you like. As an analogy, you could call a Cm6 an Am7b5/C. The component notes are exactly the same. But most folks don't use them interchangeably, because the feel, or character, is different.

What complicates things in an improvisatory context, of course, is that many of these similar chords can be freely substituted for each other, or used in partial or altered form, or effectively changed by what other musicians you're playing with choose to play. (Example: a guitarist plays an Em7 up high. The bassist, however, being a contrary soul, plays a low C. Boy howdy! now it's a Cmaj9!)

[Suburban]

Originally posted by Pacman


Don't play a lot of jazz, do you?

A: no, not too much.
B: I happen to like the 6!

[wulf]

Originally posted by Phil Smith
That GMaj7 is supporting the B in the melody since for the most part in ATTYR, the chord to melody note relationship is a third.

As I walked home, I was reading through ATTYR, and was struck by how much the third was used in the melody. It's opening up a whole new area of study to me - up to know, I've tended to look at the chords and build them using my knowledge of 'spelling' without making reference to the melody. Now I'm becoming much more aware of the relationship to the melody and thus, hopefully, a better musician because of it.

Wulf

[moley]

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


Well, I have seen those m(b6), and I don't think you can simply say they're equivalent to Abmaj7/C, even if the notes are the same. They're often voiced differently and just feel and sound differently, for lack of a more precise description.

I know. I'm not saying they're equivalent, I'm saying when I see a chord with that configuration of notes, I find it's an Abmaj7/C rather than Cm(b6), and it's functioning as such. I never said they're equivalent.

I don't think I've ever actually seen Cm(b6) in a chart. But if I had that chord, and it was functioning as a C minor chord, rather than an Abmaj7 then yeah, I'd write it Cm(b6).

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by moley


I know. I'm not saying they're equivalent, I'm saying when I see a chord with that configuration of notes, I find it's an Abmaj7/C rather than Cm(b6), and it's functioning as such. I never said they're equivalent.

I don't think I've ever actually seen Cm(b6) in a chart. But if I had that chord, and it was functioning as a C minor chord, rather than an Abmaj7 then yeah, I'd write it Cm(b6).

I should have said *functionally* equivalent, as that's what I was thinking. But in any case, I have seen those chords where they were, to my mind at least, undoubtedly functioning as Cm rather than a 1st inversion of Abmaj7. Now, ask me exactly where, and of course I can't tell you. Somewhere in the 1000s of charts I've seen over the years. My memory tends to be comprehensive but inexact!

[moley]

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


I should have said *functionally* equivalent, as that's what I was thinking. But in any case, I have seen those chords where they were, to my mind at least, undoubtedly functioning as Cm rather than a 1st inversion of Abmaj7.

Yeah, I believe you entirely. I don't reckon they're that common though.

[geshel]

An enlightening thread! Thanks guys.

[Howard K]

i second that. very interesting, nice one