Yet another modal question...

[Fassa Albrecht]

OK, I've got my head around modes almost, but what happens in the case of altered, sustained and dominant chords? I've so far found no way of making these chordal types fit into any of the modes.

Help?

[Papa Dangerous]

Modes do not exist, there is no such thing as a mode.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Fassa Albrecht

OK, I've got my head around modes almost, but what happens in the case of altered, sustained and dominant chords? I've so far found no way of making these chordal types fit into any of the modes. Help?

My first reaction was; sit this one out. But, what the heck.

Altered, how? The way it's altered points you.

Sustained chords want to move to the parent chord, look at the parent to see what you should do. Asus2 or 4 wants to move to the A chord as such I think of sustained chords as fill or passing chords, i.e. not worth a mode.

Dominant chords. Mix has worked for years.

[kb9wyz]

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

Modes do not exist, there is no such thing as a mode.

1000 music instruction and theory books beg to differ.

Since modes are based on key signature, the diatonic chords will be according to the mode. For instance, in you're playing in G mixolydian (key of C), a Csus will replace the middle note of the chord with an F as normal. In the event of augmented chords, the 5th for the chord will go sharp as normal, making it a chromatic chord.

Basically, there is nothing different for you to worry about with modes. After all, "major" is a mode (Ionian). The only thing that changes for you is that the root for your chord progression will be the degree of the mode (so playing G mixolydian is the same as C major, it's just that your root chord is G).

Remember, the name of the chord tells you what you need to know about the chord; the key (not mode) determines if it is chromatic or diatonic. So for G mixolydian, any chord that is not diatonic to the key of C is chromatic.

[TobyBrodel]

there are many different ways to approach modalism.

in the case of a suspended chord, let's say csus4 (C,F,G) there are five natural modes that will contain those notes (C,F,G) any of them MIGHT sound good, depending on what's come before it and after.

altered chords are exactly that, altered, so maybe you could add some altered tones into your modes, play natural modes straight over them and love the tension or learn new scales.

often altered dominants come from the diminished scale (S,T,S,T,S,T,S,T or in c - C,Db,Eb,E,F#,G,A,Bb) or the altered scale, which is a mode of the melodic minor (S,T,S,T,T,T,T or in c - C,Db,Eb,E,F#,Ab,Bb [from the C# melodic minor scale])

the modes of the melodic minor scale contain many of the common altered tones so take a look there.

but above all, understand the function of the chords you're playing over and play with your ear. there are a bajillion scales out there to learn, train your ear to recognize whether you're playing the root note, a chord tone, an extension, or a dissonance. learn these sounds. then you'll see everything as either playing "inside" or "outside". any of the twelve notes COULD be the perfect one.

[Papa Dangerous]

Originally Posted by kb9wyz

1000 music instruction and theory books beg to differ.

I was being facetious

However, there was this whole bit when I studied theory about modern use of modes and ancient (I believe Greek - or ancient church modes used in Gregorian chant, which might of been based off the Greek ideas... But then again, the only remainder of Ancient Greek music we have are about 45 fragments, so I am currently unsure.) use of modes. There was a misnomer an that the modes today do not represent the modes of yesteryear. I believe they are the same as hypo/plagal modes. But that was information that was really only talked about/rarely referenced. It confused me.. if I attempted to read it again, it would probably still confuse me.

[MalcolmAmos]

Papa you were correct. Modes are for the 6 string guys to run up and down the neck thinking this will impress young girls.

[TobyBrodel]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Papa you were correct. Modes are for the 6 string guys to run up and down the neck thinking this will impress young girls.

yeah.

like these guys.

John Coltrane live - YouTube

Blue in Green by. Miles Davis - YouTube

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by Fassa Albrecht

OK, I've got my head around modes almost, but what happens in the case of altered, sustained and dominant chords? I've so far found no way of making these chordal types fit into any of the modes.

Help?

Ok here is how I see and use modes in our music system.

Altered chords? Easy, it is the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale !!!

Suspended chords? Easy, it is actually the 5th mode of the major scale emphasing the fourth instead of the third. Note that the 2nd mode of the major pentatonic is perfect for that type of chord also.

Dominant chords? There are a lot of modes that can fit a dominant chord depending on its harmonic function or the type of extensions you want to play. Again the 5th mode of the major scale is perfect for x7, x9, x11 and x13.

From the minor harmonic scale the 5th mode will fit the x7(b9), x11(b9) and x7(b9b13).

From the minor melodic scale the fourth mode will fit x7(#11), x9(#11) and x13(#11). The 5th mode will fit a x9(b13) and the 7th mode will fit any combinations of altered fifths and ninths chords from this: x7(b5,#5,b9,#9).

Hope this helps,

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by TobyBrodel

yeah.

like these guys.

John Coltrane live - YouTube

Blue in Green by. Miles Davis - YouTube

But what they are doing is so far removed from the 'guitar modal stuff' you see out there it isn't funny.

[MalcolmAmos]

This may help:
Modal Harmony

Noitice the links at the bottom of the page.

[Correlli]

^ that sums it up pretty good

[Fassa Albrecht]

Sorry, I meant diminished chords in my OP. I know that a dominant takes a Mixolydian.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by Fassa Albrecht

Sorry, I meant diminished chords in my OP. I know that a dominant takes a Mixolydian.

Well diminished scales are symmetric scales and are something on their own but using the 2nd mode of it will give you the scale you can play over a x13(b9,#11). Also because of the symetry of it (W-H-W-H etc..) every minor third (W in the scale construction) will be the starting note of a similar scale but a minor third apart. So from C diminished scale you can construct also Eb, Gb(F#) and A diminished scales. So because each scale contain 4 scales there is only 3 diminished to cover the 12 tones.

[kb9wyz]

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

I was being facetious

I know. I just had to return the fun.