You've heard it before...Jazz Soloing!

[dyuaru]

Alright, so I've been searching the forums for good topics on soloing. Got pretty many results and have gotten some decent information on soloing but not exactly what I was looking for. Hoping you guys could clear it up.

So I know that you should solo using the notes from the chords of a song and that solos should be an expression of the player and doesn't have strict rules. I've been watching a lot of solos lately and I've been wanting to incorporate that type of "shredding"(for the lack of a better word) phrase that alot of bassists use.

Not the best example but like what Tal plays at 0:17.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRFkOrnds8I

I've read lessons on Adam Nitti's site that say to practice scales intervally and sequentially to help in improv soloing. This has helped a bit but I still can't seem to get that effect in my solos.
So what I want to know is which specific notes of the chord to choose when I want to do that type of phrase? Which degrees of the scale sound the best together to create phrases like that? Like would you go from the 5 to the 3 then to the 4, etc.

I can play that general type of slow and smooth type of solo but I see that most guys tend to do a mix of both that and the "shredding" deal. I've read quite a few lessons regarding soloing but can't find one that shows this specific type of phrasing.

I know everyone does it different and soloing is kind of a broad and not specific but I'm hoping there's something that you guys can show me that'll help.

Thanks,
Phil

[DrayMiles]

passing notes, guide tones (3rds and 7ths), and the notes you end a phrase on. Look at some charlie parker, The omni book...

I find I'm exploring the pentatonic scales more to "visually" help me with chords.

Personally, I don't think she's that good...

[needmoney]

Originally Posted by DrayMiles

Personally, I don't think she's that good...

She can lay it down, but her solo album was a big disappointment in my book. I just got so bored so quickly.

[DocBop]

There are many approaches so go to get a Jazz teacher or mentor. If Jazz soloing is your thing over time you will study a few approaches to soloing and blend them into your approach. Also transcribe, transcribe, transcbe. But don't just to learn the solo, but analyze what the artist was doing. What notes on which chords, what scales, rhythms and other tools they may be using.

[Freddels]

Check out some Patitucci stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFVyia5x2uk

[Lorenzini]

Here's the biggest thing man...
Learn basic harmony. Get that theory under your belt.

THEN, listen to a ton of records. Listen to straight-ahead jazz. Work your ass off trying to cop what those guys were playing. It doesn't come right away - you certainly have to work hard to get it happening.

DON'T, try to figure out what Patitucci, Janek Gwizdala, Richard Bona, Tal, etc are doing right off the bat.
If you don't understand WHAT they are doing and WHY they are doing it, it's not going to come.
Try to learn some early bebop and straight-ahead stuff. Go to a few jazz jam sessions. GET A TEACHER!

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by Lorenzini

Here's the biggest thing man...
Learn basic harmony. Get that theory under your belt.

THEN, listen to a ton of records. Listen to straight-ahead jazz. Work your ass off trying to cop what those guys were playing. It doesn't come right away - you certainly have to work hard to get it happening.

DON'T, try to figure out what Patitucci, Janek Gwizdala, Richard Bona, Tal, etc are doing right off the bat.
If you don't understand WHAT they are doing and WHY they are doing it, it's not going to come.
Try to learn some early bebop and straight-ahead stuff. Go to a few jazz jam sessions. GET A TEACHER!

+1 Actually, don't listen to bass players if you want to learn how to solo. Listen to horn players and piano players.

[Lorenzini]

Originally Posted by Freddels

+1 Actually, don't listen to bass players if you want to learn how to solo. Listen to horn players and piano players.

BIG +1

NO BASS SOLO COPPING!

Want to know what Janek Gwizdala, Jeff Berlin, Richard Bona, and every other great soloing bassist.. all have in common? They were all into piano players and horn players. Especially Janek and Jeff from what I've read and seen.

You might want to ask Ed Friedland what he thinks about this subject. He is a super down to earth guy who can actually solo very very well in the straight-ahead jazz idiom. Also go to the Ask Janek Gwizdala Forum here on Talkbass and get his feedback. He is very helpful and welcomes any and all questions.

Best,
Matt

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Freddels

+1 Actually, don't listen to bass players if you want to learn how to solo. Listen to horn players and piano players.

I disagree bass players should listen to the great bass soloists, but they should include the greats of any instrument. I hate to think young bassists don't hear the solos of Paul Chambers and other bass legends.

I the thing I don't hear said much here is if you dig how someone plays/solos in addition to transcribing their solos read their interviews who their influences. Listen to what influenced their style and transcribe some of their work. No great player came out of total isolation they all consciously and unconsciously are influenced by the music and musicians they listened to. Like some greats (I won't mention names) say oh we listen to (fill in the blank) a lot but not influenced by them. If you listen to someone you are being influenced even on a subconscious level. It may be what you don't want to do, but that is still an influence.

Bottom line listen to everything if you like it whether an entire solo or just a motif and then transcribe and analyze it. See it, Feel it, Make it your own!

[Bassist4Life]

Have you ever check this out before?

Keep it simple. Baby steps come before "Giant Steps".

Joe

[Andrew Jones]

You may want to look into scale and cord sequences. These are patterns repeating, with some change.


At the 23 second piont in that video Tal plays a phrase then you hear the same idea "moved over" then again.. that's the kind of sounds you'll get out of that.

Do a serch here and out on the net. also called scale/chord/cromatic paterns.

You may considerbuying Hal Crooks Improvising book. That will lead the way.

EDIT... actually that download from the previous post looks great.


Aj

[Andrew Jones]

Hi

Sorry about my original post I obviously did not really read your whole post.


"I've read lessons on Adam Nitti's site that say to practice scales intervally and sequentially to help in improv soloing. This has helped a bit but I still can't seem to get that effect in my solos.
So what I want to know is which specific notes of the chord to choose when I want to do that type of phrase? Which degrees of the scale sound the best together to create phrases like that? Like would you go from the 5 to the 3 then to the 4, etc.



From my expirience with this the most important thing is where and when you stop. Thats what catches peoples ears.


If you've been practicing scale paterns, One thing you could do if you havn't figured this out yet is. Maintain a patern even if you've changed key of the moment.


Like this.


take this Eight thingy


D-7/G7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

C-7/F7/Bbmaj7/Bbmaj7

Your gonna play C Ionian scale for the First Four and Bb for the second,Right?

Just to make this easier to see/understand on your axe think C Ionian then C dorian.

The diference is 2 notes right? the B's and the E's are gonna change nothing else.


Now I'm gonn start with a extremly simple thing.

Pick and Rhythm, I'll use 1/2 notes.

Pick and range, I'll use from C on my E string up till the A at the 14th fret of my G sting.

Pick a sequence, I'll use 4 scale steps assending the Start again from a Second above.


It would look like this.


CD/EF/DE/FG
EbF/GA/FG/ABb
GA/BC/AB/CD
ABb/CD/BbC/DEb
BC/DE/CD/EF
DEb/FG/EbF/GA



Now this is a annoyingly simple and unmusical example but you get the idea.

You get a nice thing when the note that changes happens to fall on the key change extra nice thing when its a pretty 3rd like my 5th messure.

Notice I chose to go from Bb's to B instead of C in the top of the third go around this is a bit questionable its a nice changing note but its a masking note on the sound of the II chord ie it makes that chord sound more like V7. C would have clearer harmonic motion. Something to notice and think about what sounds you like.


Come up with your own.



One thing though you will start to hit very dissonent sounding stuff. Like that F on the Forth bar. The Eflat is worse on the 23rd ? bar. Learn to control that stuff with rhythm,Phrasing,The Speed of the tempo and you notes and where you stop your phrase.



Aj

[dyuaru]

Thanks alot for the help guys, great advice, and now I have a lot to read

That link to the jazz concepts site has a lot of help and I think will get me on the right track. I'm going to try applying the pattern stuff you mentioned Andrew and see if I can get my phrases sounding a little better.

Now, got some practicing to get to