Zepplin's Ocean. Really 15/8?

Funkateer · #1 10-07-2005, 12:22 PM

My drummer wants to cover this tune, and I have this MP3 of unknown origin of Zepplin doing it. You can hear them count the tune in in 4/4, but once it gets going, the A part is clearly 15/8 (i.e. 1/2 a beat of 4/4 gets dropped). I count the 15 as 4/4/4/3.

However, it seems to me that if I was going to count this in and it was really in 15/8, I'd be counting twice as fast and probably just give the last 3 of the 15.

Is this part really in 15? Or do you think the whole band rushed 1/2 a beat? If it really is in 15/8, counting quarter notes seems strange.

Lyle Caldwell · #2 10-07-2005, 12:24 PM

They're just dropping an eighth note - 4/4 with the occasional measure of 7/8. Trust Bonham's part.

NJL · #3 10-07-2005, 12:37 PM

+1 to Lyle

**cheezewiz** · #4 10-07-2005, 12:40 PM

yep....4/4 and 7/8.

Joe Garage · #5 10-07-2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezewiz

yep....4/4 and 7/8.

The 7/8 part is the chorus?

60hz · #6 10-08-2005, 01:47 AM

Chorus and guitar solo are the alternating 4/4 and 7/8 parts.

The chorus bass part is cool because it doesn't exactly double the guitar part.

Kelly Coyle · #7 10-08-2005, 08:07 AM

Except it isn't 7/8. It's three bars of 4/4 and one bar of 3/4, I'm almost certain.

thewanderer24 · #8 10-08-2005, 10:18 AM

It's 3 bars of 4/4 and one bar of 7/8 when that section of the song comes along. If you wanted to, you could count that as 2 bars of 4/4 and one of 15/8, or one insanely long bar of 31/8.

But, it's easier to just think of it as 3 bars of 4/4 with one bar of 7/8, or straight 4/4 with an eighth note dropped every 4th bar.

Kelly Coyle · #9 10-08-2005, 01:12 PM

I guess I'd best defer to the prevailing wisdom! I could very easily be -- am often -- quite wrong.

Lyle Caldwell · #10 10-08-2005, 03:17 PM

If you count the verse as common time and the bridge as double time, the big guitar riff 3 bars of 4/4 followed by a bar of 3/4.

If you count the verse as half time and the bridge as common time, the guitar riff is a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 7/8.

Make sense?

Lyle Caldwell · #11 10-08-2005, 03:19 PM

Given Bonzo's "we've had four already and now we're steady going 1, 2, 3, 4" I lean towards the 4/4 and 7/8 notion.

tappel · #12 10-08-2005, 04:13 PM

You guys figure it out yet?

Seriously though, I've done that song. Oddly enough, the time was never an issue. We never even discussed it. If I had to count it, I couldn't play it.

But I do believe that Lyle nailed it down.

Here's what it looks like when a coupla drunk, pushing 50, amateurs play it:
video linkage

Tom

leanne · #13 10-14-2005, 04:40 AM

The transcription from my teacher has it in 8/8, 7/8. and 4/4. He has the intro written as 1 measure of 8/8, 1 measure of 7/8. Then the verse in 4/4.

Unchain · #14 10-14-2005, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leanne

The transcription from my teacher has it in 8/8, 7/8. and 4/4. He has the intro written as 1 measure of 8/8, 1 measure of 7/8. Then the verse in 4/4.

Really? When I play it, it's just the 7/8 and 4/4 no 8/8.

cowsgomoo · #15 10-14-2005, 09:58 AM

given that there are 4 heavily emphasised beats on the 1st bar of the riff, i'd say 4/4 is a more accurate way of showing it than 8/8... although I agree there are times when switching meters it's sometimes more clear to keep a constant denominator

like all the others have said, it's a 4/4 and 7/8... the 7/8 functioning as basically a 4/4 with an eight note lopped off

My fave bit is the end where they use the 'two groups of three 8th notes' as a pickup to change into a 12/8 swinging rock n roll finale

bonscottvocals · #16 10-16-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tappel

Here's what it looks like when a coupla drunk, pushing 50, amateurs play it:
video linkage

Tom

Nicely done, Tom and co. I'd come out and see you guys.

JimmyM · #17 10-16-2005, 10:09 PM

OK, so we've figured out about 6 or 7 different ways to count the exact same thing. And guess what? It works for everyone! So quit nitpicking!

klharper · #18 10-19-2005, 05:29 PM

Yep, what Lyle said.

It's actually a pretty common thing to have 3 measures of 4/4 followed by a measure of 7/8, "skipping" a half beat. I know a few songs but can't recall their names right now.

In order for something to be in 15/8, which is a coupound quintuple meter, it has to be counted in 5 beats with subdivisions of threes inside each beat. It can't be some awkward count of 4/4/4/3, only 5 beats divided in three (3/3/3/3/3 in the way you said it).

For example, 6/8 is always counted in two, with subdivisions of three. 6/8 should not be counted in three with subdivison of two - in such case, it should be in 3/4.

Compound meters (such as 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, 15/8, 6/16.... etc.) are always subdivided in threes, while simple meters (4/4, 2/4, 2/2, etc.) always subdivided in twos.