PayPal Gift & International

MNAirHead · #1 04-25-2012, 08:04 AM

This past week I had two international sales..... And one freight forward

Due to logistics, I will not ship international with standard PayPal.

I thought shifting fees and risk to the buyer was against the rules.

I'm not against doing the international legwork and packaging... It is about three hours per transaction.

Risk and logistics are why most USA people won't ship outside the lower 48.

1-can I put "PayPal gift only" in my ads

2-did I break any rules by requiring the buyers to receive moderator approval for these two transactions (thanks Josh)

3-is there a proven better way for international buyers

**baba** · #2 04-25-2012, 08:20 AM

My understanding is you can't put Paypal Gift Only. However, you could put Western Union and include that other options are negotiable. This way you are not demanding a gift payment, but could open that up as a second option if they don't like Western Union.

MNAirHead · #3 04-25-2012, 08:28 AM

I take pride in my straight ahead and factual ads

I believe it's deception to disclose terms in pm.

It's more honest to note "international: PayPal gift only + 1 week prep/packaging"

I dig the ethics and brotherhood on talkbass - I do not believe truth via pm only improves the place

cybersnyder · #4 04-25-2012, 10:55 AM

From the classified rules:

Quote:

No surcharges on an item are allowed, this includes the 3% for Paypal. That fee is the seller's responsibility, not the buyer. Paypal's usage agreement specifically prohibits this.

Do not request a payment be sent through Paypal as a personal payment or gift. This leaves the buyer with no recourse should there be a problem - Paypal does not allow for contesting gift transactions. This is also against the Paypal usage agreement, and can result in action taken against both the buyer's and the seller's accounts.

MNAirHead · #5 04-25-2012, 02:20 PM

This is exactly what I thought....

Looking for a better method for next time beyond "lower 48 only"

**baba** · #6 04-25-2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

I take pride in my straight ahead and factual ads

I believe it's deception to disclose terms in pm.

It's more honest to note "international: PayPal gift only + 1 week prep/packaging"

I dig the ethics and brotherhood on talkbass - I do not believe truth via pm only improves the place

Ok, forget the PM part. My point is a moderator already made it clear in another thread that you cannot request ONLY Paypal gift. That said, if you indicate "Western Union or Paypal gift" in the listing, you should be covered. I'll dig up the thread and post it. My intent is not to suggest you deceive in a PM, but provide you an approved solution. Whether you handle it via PM or simply note it in the posting is immaterial.

**baba** · #7 04-25-2012, 06:54 PM

...and here it is: Please explain how (if) PayPal's Buyer Protection is applicable to TalkBass

Johnny Alien · #8 04-26-2012, 05:57 AM

Excuse me for the ignorance but why would international sales change the way you take payment? Is it because if something happens in shipping you don't want to take the hit financially?

I do understand that and that is why I don't ship international. I hate to be that way but it just makes my sales easier for me.

cybersnyder · #9 04-26-2012, 12:19 PM

Just don't ship internationally unless it's to someone you know.

bassmonkeee · #10 04-26-2012, 01:15 PM

I had great success with shipito.com when I sold my Big Al to someone in Australia. You have a US address to ship to, the buyer deals with all forms and shipping from the shipito location. Shipito sends photos of the box to the buyer when it arrives at their facility.

The buyer saves some money on shipping since shipito has an arrangement with FedEx that makes it cheaper for the buyer, too.

So, the buyer paid me the money for the bass and the cost of shipping it to the US location. Once it was delivered there, it was no longer my problem. The shipping forms and cost from there to the int'l location was handled between Shipito and the buyer.

Going forward, this is the only way I'll do anything international, assuming I ever have a bass that I don't plan on keeping ever again.

Oh, it also helps to have references on both sides. I was lucky enough to have a mutual imaginary online friend who could vouch for both me and the buyer.

cybersnyder · #11 04-26-2012, 01:41 PM

But is it a PayPal verified address? If not, you're not covered by PayPal's seller protection.

**baba** · #12 04-26-2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybersnyder

But is it a PayPal verified address? If not, you're not covered by PayPal's seller protection.

In the end, the seller really has no protection using Paypal. If the receiver says their box was full of bricks, the seller is hosed. They always side with the buyer.

cybersnyder · #13 04-26-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baba

In the end, the seller really has no protection using Paypal. If the receiver says their box was full of bricks, the seller is hosed. They always side with the buyer.

You could use the shipping weight on your shipping receipt to counter that. In the end, you have to know the person that you're shipping to. I've shipped basses and pedals internationally with no issues. If they have no feedback and are newbies, I don't ship to them. If they're in the US and still a newbie that I find questionable, I'll call them.

The strangest potential transaction was from someone that had an unverified PayPal address that had China listed as the country but the rest of the address was a US address. They claimed that they had money in their Chinese bank account but not in their US account. Yeah, right. So I cancelled that transaction.

Don't take money orders. There are so many scams with those that you might as well send the bass and let them send you a check when they get around to it.

Downunderwonder · #14 04-27-2012, 04:43 AM

XE - The World's Favorite Currency and Foreign Exchange Site takes buyer's money locally on an agreed price and sends seller required amount in his local currency as bank draft. No fees at seller's end except what your bank might charge you to deposit a bank draft from another bank.

When I signed up to xe.com I had to provide as many details as I would to get a firearms licence, due to anti terrorist money laundering controls.

**baba** · #15 04-27-2012, 06:12 AM

What everyone needs to know is Paypal will always side with the buyer. Other than the ease of use and widespread acceptance, it is a horrible tool for a seller given that there is no protection. That said, I use it with people I trust.

Despite everyone's fears, a USPS Money Order is the safest route for a seller. There need be no bank or "clearing" function that may rear it's head later. Receive USPS MO, take it to post office, they scan it to verify authenticity, cash is deposited in your hand, now you ship goods. Fail proof.

Of course this doesn't help with international sales. For that Western Union or Paypal Gift.

cybersnyder · #16 04-27-2012, 07:21 AM

I think that by not accepting PayPal and forcing money orders you'll end up losing more in lost sales than possible scams. If a seller told me that I had to send them a money order, I'd bail because it's a pain and there are far too many scams out there involving money orders. If they want me to use PayPal gift, I'd bail again because they're saying that they don't trust me and they want me to lose all of my buyer's protection.

I think the best you can do is use PayPal and know who you're selling to as best you can.

pokol · #17 05-06-2012, 07:02 AM

I'd like to add to this topic, seeing as though I was one of MNAirheads international customers recently.

I was asked to make a gift payment via paypal for a purchase. I was very hesitant and cautious about this for obvious reasons but I can also understand why the request was made. There are so many scams and false claims regarding paypal and product return issues/costs. I am also a new Talkbass member and have no feedback etc to vouch for my reputation.

I brought this request to the attention of a moderator which MNAirhead suggested, so there was no sneaking around. The mod reiterated Talkbass policy which was expected.

I chose to go ahead and make the payment as a gift. My decision was based on MNAirheads reputation and feedback and by following TB threads he was involved in.

Worked out well, MNAirhead is an honest guy and took care and effort with our transaction. Very helpful and thorough.

In this case both seller and buyer knew the risks and conditions of this type of transaction and both agreed on proceeding.

I think the seller should be able to advertise their transaction preferences up front publicly. Not demand it but express preference. As long as both parties are fully aware and understand their rights/responsibilities. As a buyer if you don't want to take the risk, pay another way, or don't buy it.

MNAirHead · #18 05-06-2012, 02:45 PM

The biggest reason for the gift only... is to only have serious people contact. There are tons and tons of international folks that will want to have all the logistics of packing and documentation done THEN decide if they want to pay for it.

I make it super easy...

1-Paypal for the bass (gift only)
2-Paypal for shipping (gift only)

This isolates the price of the bass to a single discussion. The buyer then has the opportunity to figure out logistics.

INTERNATIONAL NOTE--- most methods will not facilitate a cased and neck on bass.

Downunderwonder · #19 05-07-2012, 05:18 AM

US mail sent me a Jazz in original Fender flightcase and cardboard wrapping no problem. Insured EMS.

Templar · #20 05-28-2012, 01:12 AM

Quote:

I think the seller should be able to advertise their transaction preferences up front publicly. Not demand it but express preference. As long as both parties are fully aware and understand their rights/responsibilities.

Taking Paypal "gift" payments for the sale of goods is against Paypal rules, and is seen by Paypal as fraud to escape their fees (duh).

Two consenting parties may not care about having their Paypal accounts suspended or revoked, but conducting such transactions here could spell trouble for Talkbass, as Paypal could view Talkbass as facilitating fraudulent transactions.

Just sayin'