Natural ability??

[cire113]

so whats the deal with people like Beethoven or motzart who were like pretty much ridiculous before they hit puberty.. ? or Savants? or child prodigies?

ok thanks ill get the books lol

[sayman]

cire113: Read one or more of the recommenced books. All your questions are answered.

[BassMom88]

Originally Posted by cire113

so whats the deal with people like Beethoven or motzart who were like pretty much ridiculous before they hit puberty.. ? or Savants? or child prodigies?

How come everyones IQ test/Aptitude test/Or Any other cognitive/physical test for that result is different?

The human body is extremely complex many people are created with tremendous differential characteristics as a result of genes and physiological makeup...

The idea that no such thing as talent or natural ability exists ;

Thats like saying everyone is exactly the same and if we do the same things we would get the same results; which is NOT true in the real world;

This natural ability/talent debate is no more than the fact that every human being on the face of the earth is Unique in their way; ..

No two people are alike not even identical twins...

Thats why some people excel at certain things and other don't.... Sure it can be overcome by hard work/passion... but there is definitely natural ability present in some individuals...

A lot serious player in the NBA I've met trained just as hard/practices/ just like the big 3.

But how many are on the level of guys like Lebron, Wade,and Kobe? Is it because they didn't have the passion or urge hard work?

Oh well i give up i thought i was done also LOL

Mozart and some others may be explained by a genetic trait called Synesthesia. It's getting quite a bit of attention by researchers these days and there's a ton of books out there now on the subject. Although it can never be confirmed for sure about Mozart et. al - there is a modern-day Mozart named Jay Greenberg.

http://m.cbsnews.com/postwatch.rbml?...&cbsID=2209108

He doesn't mention his synesthesia in this video, but he wrote about it last Fall on his Facebook page.

Some are calling it the "Creativity" gene as many with this trait are in the arts. Here's a list of famous people who are confirmed, or thought to have this gene.
Incorrect Pleasures: Famous synaesthetes or possible synesthetes: a list of amazing people with references.

and an article
PLoS Biology: Survival of the Synesthesia Gene: Why Do People Hear Colors and Taste Words?

Here are some book titles
Wednesday is Indigo Blue - Cytowic/Eagleman
Tasting the Universe - Maureen Greenberg
Synesthesia - The Hidden Sense - VanCampen
The Man Who Tasted Shapes - Cytowic

This may be for a different thread completely, but I think synesthesia should be considered as a factor. I know people who have it that are incredibly musical - but of course they have also put in the time and dedication and have a lot of other factors going for them too such as those mentioned by Gladwell in "Outliers".....so back to the egg I don't mean to stir the pot. There's just so much we don't know yet about the brain and all the other factors but it is fun to discuss and learn from each other.

[sayman]

Mozart is actually explained in particular in some of the books, and the combination of musical training from extreme early age by a accomplished musician (his father) plus time is what made him appear to be a prodigy. What we also miss is the thousands of compositions that he wrote until he started composing anything of note - some time in his twenties, if I recall.

So this is another illusion of sorts that perpetuates the myth of "Natural Ability" - we see the result, but not the years of hard work that went into developing the final product.

[BassMom88]

Fair enough about Wolfgang, but if you watch the video of Jay Greenberg, he describes his experience as the compositions are already written before it gets to the paper/program...that's the cool part and the cross-wiring. He was like 10 in that video and his parents aren't professional musicians, but gave him access to what he needed to thrive.
There are of course many people with synesthesia who don't have any "special abilities" per se, but sometimes, with the "lucky" factors (as Gladwell describes) and 10,000 hours....something magical can happen. From my own experience, for musical ability anyway, I believe you can begin your 10k hours at birth with listening.

I'm getting pretty good at identifying the synesthetes in both Art and Music (those not already on the list).. Some have confirmed via Twitter and even in person. Before she passed away, Ingrid Pastorius and I were musing about whether Jaco had this or not. She wasn't sure but described his phenomenal memory, which is a trait many synesthetes have and we traded some articles on the subject.
I don't know to what degree synesthesia plays a factor in someone's ability, but from all the research I've read, with the right combination of things, it seems it can be a "natural" advantage being something one is born with----again, not trying to argue, just suggesting something interesting to consider

[ksandvik]

The first Mozart compositions were actually pretty awful. It helps to spend 10,000 hours composing music....

[ras1983]

The thing is though, 10,000 hours explains how someone can gain technical competence. I'm yet to see an explanation about how people can become masters in being creative. The Synesthesia thing sounds intersting though, and may provide such an explanation.

E.g. Someone can learn to become an expert in free throws just like someone else can learn to become an expert in the technical aspects of playing music or making art (learning how to pluck a bass, use an art brush, sculpt with clay). The creativity component, however, is not as clear cut and it here that I think natural ability comes into play. Some people are more creative than others and can "create" things that others can only copy/emulate. Again, Synethsesia sounds like an interesting explanation.

[Rockin Mike]

Or a good name for a fusion band.

[BassMom88]

Originally Posted by Rockin Mike

Or a good name for a fusion band.

Already taken

Ras1983....it's a different perceptual reality than most people could ever imagine. It also provides somewhat of a "cheat" (for lack of a better word) for some as well. With the music to color type a musical note = a color, you can tell what key something is in and it makes transcribing difficult pieces easier. The colors have also been described to me as having a range of shades not even existing in real life.
So many of the people on the list of famous people who have it have made significant contibutions/advances in their respective fields. It seems, from what I've read, to be about the ability to see connections between things that don't seem to make sense to others, and that's part of creativity. It's completely fascinating to me.

[sayman]

You certainly still need the knowledge to create anything satisfactory in your chosen skill - the more the better - and the skills to create it. These are earned, not naturally endowed in your genes.

In studying the process that highly creative people follow, it has been found that it is a step by step process - multiple drafts or versions are produced, refined, discarded, etc, until an end product is reached that is satisfactory to the producer.

So it is a laborious process. Perhaps highly creative people are simply harder, more demanding workers?

As for synethsesia - there are a lot of different types, it seems (I'm going to guess we're talking about "Sound to color synesthesia" here), and true neurological synesthesia is involuntary - many people never even realize they have it. I'm not sure that having this condition will directly translate into more creativity - apparently most people with this condition do not agree on what colors go with sounds, so there would be no overall pattern to use. It doesn't follow that seeing sounds a colors means you're going to know how to put notes together better than others.

But I don't know a lot about this subject at the moment.

[BassMom88]

Originally Posted by sayman

As for synethsesia - there are a lot of different types, it seems (I'm going to guess we're talking about "Sound to color synesthesia" here), and true neurological synesthesia is involuntary - many people never even realize they have it. I'm not sure that having this condition will directly translate into more creativity - apparently most people with this condition do not agree on what colors go with sounds, so there would be no overall pattern to use. It doesn't follow that seeing sounds a colors means you're going to know how to put notes together better than others.

But I don't know a lot about this subject at the moment.

When I first started studying this subject about 2 years ago, my first question was - is this trait/ability something that can actually be functional? My graduate work was in Occupational Therapy and functional/meaningful activity in human occupation is one of the founding principles of my profession, so I was drawn to that angle. I read the same things as you- that synesthesia is unique to each person and many indeed don't realize they have it until they're older. It seemed to just be something people had, but was it useful - perhaps an advantage in some way? So I tried to find some examples of functional use. Improved memory for dates, names, etc. seemed to top the list. Two examples I found in the arts were Franz Liszt and Duke Ellington who both used this ability in their musical endeavors. Liszt would tell his orchestra to "Play more Blue"...they eventually understood what he was talking about - he needed a certain sound and would know it when he experienced his "blue". (Here's a fun article about how Liszt became the first "rock star") How Franz Liszt Became The World's First Rock Star : NPR
Duke Ellington could tell who was playing by the not only the color a player's instrument triggered for him, but also the texture he experienced with that color. I highly recommend Maureen Seaberg's book "Tasting the Universe" for even more examples (this just came out recently - and it was exactly what I was looking for). Amazon.com: Tasting the Universe: People Who See Colors in Words and Rainbows in Symphonies (9781601631596): Maureen Seaberg, William Bushell: Books

With all the recent attention and research, it's something that more people seem to be noticing. I also know for sure that once discovered, several people have told me that they began to notice more types the more they paid attention to it. If discovered at a young age, I absolutely believe it can be developed and used to exercise and expand creativity. I've seen it happen in multiple instances and from my observations, the sound/color connection seems to guide the person in where to go next. Listening to a musician with synesthesia "playing red" or "pastel" connects two concepts that, to the rest of us, are supposed to be just metaphorical...the result can be deeply emotional. The article I posted earlier suggests that creativity may be one of the reasons for the preservation of this gene. I truly hope that is the case.

Does this contribute to any type of "natural ability"? I don't know if we'll ever know - but it is something one is born with (for those with the true neurological type).
I just feel it may be a piece of the puzzle. If you have the "perfect storm" of factors (which includes all the things you and others have mentioned) and you have synesthesia on top of it -maybe you end up with the people on the list. A lot of those people were/are innovators and have left their mark on the world. Here's another link/version of that list - Sean Day is pretty much a "guru" on the subject if you will and his version is typically the one others quote. Synesthete-composers-and-musicians

If I ever go back for my PhD - this would definitely be what I would want to research further!! Thanks for all the info./debate etc etc etc

[JimL]

Originally Posted by sayman

Cool, it's next on the reading list.

If you haven't read these yet, you might like them:
The Brain That Changes Itself - Norman Doidge
How We Decide - Jonah Lehrer
On Being Certain - Robert Burton

I'm listening to Jonah Lehrer now on KQED radio's Forum program. The audio can be listened to at KQED.

[sayman]

Originally Posted by JimL

I'm listening to Jonah Lehrer now on KQED radio's Forum program. The audio can be listened to at KQED.

Thanks!

[sayman]

Just picked up Lehrer's latest - "Imagine: How Creativity Works".

[BawanaRik]

The guitar player I used to play with couldn't do a first grade math problem to save his life. One thousands time I tell him that you can't line six 4 ohm speakers in parrallel off an 8 ohm load.

But he had better natural time and could paint and sculpt.

However by using a meteronome I developed much better time that he ever had. Plus I could count to 4, which he never could.

Django, Les Paul, Hell even Jaco had to overcome inate issues to succede.

[Ant Wellington]

Well said, BR!

[sayman]

Originally Posted by sayman

Just picked up Lehrer's latest - "Imagine: How Creativity Works".

Started this yesterday. So far, some Interesting information on how to facilitate insights.

[Ant Wellington]

I'll check it out.

-aw

[sayman]

I thought this quote was interesting, ad it relates directly to this thread topic:

"We tend to assume that some people are simply more creative than others, that originality is a predetermined personality trait; if a person isn't born with the correct kind of brain, he'll never be able to compose an original song or come up with an idea as innovative as Post-It notes. But creativity isn't a fixed feature of the mind - that's why merely exposing people to the color blue can double their creative output. The imagination is vaster than we can imagine. We just need to learn how to listen."

[cire113]

Ive been reading a lot of the mentioned books in this thread and they have feel really helpful.. (talent code, talent is overrated, bounce, etc) a lot of them are repetitive but enjoyable none the less

Sayman i was looking at that Imagine book also let me know how it is...

I hear hadrien feraud talk about creativity once..

say he does what everyone else does..

If you hear something you like you steal it right away and learn what it is...

the common myth that creativity just happens out of the thin air and is magical...

Everyone gets musical ideas from someone else or somewhere....

Ive just started to realize this.. Boy do i need to really start listening more