2-5-1 Licks

[davidAaronCarte]

So I'm finding that every once inawhile I pick up a cool 2-5 lick and proceed to play the hell out of it
This got me thinking
What're your favourite licks for over a 2-5-1?

[Sam Sherry]

So I'm finding that pasting pre-arranged noises into what would otherwise be music stinks.

Practice at home. If you're playing with people, listen up and be there.

= = =

Edit: Aw, crap. You just joined. Sorry to climb up your nose. But I stand by what I said nevertheless.

[Marc Piane]

Sam. You have the kindest way of climbing up someone's nose though.


Learning licks sucks. Grrr.

There I said it.

See Sam's post why.

Oh and welcome.

[brake]

Learning licks sucks, but you do have to start someplace - Transcribe the hell out of Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, et al and figure out what made their playing work.



EDIT: I just thought about what I wrote, and that's not exactly how I feel - Learning licks doesn't suck, but playing them does.

[nickmo007]

I would encourage you to learn as many great two five licks as you can and play them in all 12 keys adjusting fingerings as needed. This will train your hands and ears to instantly apply what you learned during solos.
I disagree with some of the earlier posts. I feel that as jazz musicians at any level we are developing our skills as communicators. A large amount of that is spent developing our vocabulary. Whenever I learn an interesting new head it greatly helps to give me fresh ideas during my solos.

It is very well known how greats like Coltrane would work ideas out during practice. (Just analyze Giant Steps) Nobody would dare to say his playing sounded contrived and uninspired. A lot of the greatest musicians I have met get a kick out of a sweet turnaround lick. Go for it!

[PeterChampagne]

Yea, no joke. Any practice is good practice.

[odin70]

[

EDIT: I just thought about what I wrote, and that's not exactly how I feel - Learning licks doesn't suck, but playing them does.[/quote]

I would like to see you tell that to Charlie Parker or Jaco Pastorius.

[buddyro57]

I do agree in part with your sentiments Sam, but I also believe that there is value in the process of listening to, transcribing, and executing be bop cliches (for instance). On one hand it is, as you described, pasting licks into a musical environment, but it is also a way to build a melodic vocabulary, and also perpetuates the tradition in a sense....keeps the language alive.
JS

[LM Bass]

Pet topic with me lately. . .

I never did this as I learned to play jazz. I was taught to "hear" an idea and then play it. I listened a lot to jazz, so the stuff I wanted was usually good stuff. I learned all my harmony-scales/modes/arpeggios/upper structures/common tones. By and large, I learned by playing with better players than me, and trying to sound like the music I heard.

I understand now, that playing ii-V licks is an important part of most jazz player's development, and nothing to sneer at. I have an open mind to this system, even though it's not the way I did it. Dave Holland recommended that everyone keep a catalogue of their own favourite licks, so that they develop their own vocabulary. The problem for me is when people use the really "cheap" ii-V licks that everyone else uses, and think that they are improvising. If you're gonna play licks, please play the really good ones, the undiscovered ones. The ones you pulled from the stone, by yourself, when no one was looking. . .

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by odin70

I would like to see you tell that to Charlie Parker or Jaco Pastorius.

Well, it ain't quite like that, Beet. Improvising in jazz is not about inventing a new language every time you play. It's about expressing meaning with the vocabulary that you have the most nuanced means of expressing. Sure, Bird may have used similar vocabulary in certain situations; but what he was NOT doing was speaking in cliches.

BUDDY RO brings up an excellent point and scenario; learning ANY language is a process of learning (memorizing vocabulary, practicing application of that vocabulary) and listening (how does it sound when native speakers who have a highly nuanced means of expression speak the language). The point that SAM'L, I think, was speaking to is also one that I am a proponent of, and that is avoiding transcription solely to "datamine" vocabulary and the "regurgitation" of the phraseology especially out of context of a specific aural environment. It's something that I, personally, have found to be a very tempting trap - all I need to do is learn more scales, more licks, more re-harms etc. - and THEN I'll be able to play with meaning. In my experience, that doesn't work. If you approach playing with the idea that playing with meaning is important, if you work on the things that make that possible it is (again in my experience) much, much easier to increase the breadth and depth of your vocabulary.

So rather than "playing the hell out of ii V I licks", I think that working on ear training in some very specific ways, working on improvising in some very specific ways will be what gets our Erstwhile Ingenue into a place that they ARE ACTUALLY playing music.

[Marc Piane]

What Ed said.

[Menacewarf]

Originally Posted by odin70

I would like to see you tell that to Charlie Parker or Jaco Pastorius.

I just don't get how anyone can hear "licks" when they lisitin to Bird.

[Treyzer]

I notice that we have 3 really great teachers weighing in on this topic so... I'm asking Sam, Ed and Marc (fingers) what their opinions are. I'm asking as if I were a student and actually, i still am.

When you study a foreign language, it is common to repeat phrases over and over until you get the sound and feel and timing: Le jambon est mon amie n'est pas?....

Since most of us weren't around in the "golden age of jazz", or at least the time when many of the recordings we all love and talk about were recorded, how do we assimilate and absorb all of that information/vocabulary?

Is it not important to listen, transcribe, breakdown and hopefully assimilate the literature? What is the best way to do this?

I know that there are bassists I have studied a whole lot and certainly stolen their licks and/or phrases... As John Lennon said, "amateurs borrow, professionals steal". Sooner or later this stuff kind of twists and turns and becomes mine and part of my vocab/toolbox. If we really want to learn the language, don't we have to understand the structures, rules, idioms, basic phrases before we add our two cents?

I don't know if this makes sense or not... I really haven't even touched on "quotes" which are quite different.
You're thoughts and insights are greatly appreciated. Ed, I have your book on backorder from Lemur (shameless ingratiation!)

Thanks!

[dvh]

Originally Posted by davidAaronCarte

So I'm finding that every once inawhile I pick up a cool 2-5 lick and proceed to play the hell out of it
This got me thinking
What're your favourite licks for over a 2-5-1?

Any real replies for this? As a jazz noobie I'm curious to know.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Treyzer

I know that there are bassists I have studied a whole lot and certainly stolen their licks and/or phrases... As John Lennon said, "amateurs borrow, professionals steal". Sooner or later this stuff kind of twists and turns and becomes mine and part of my vocab/toolbox. If we really want to learn the language, don't we have to understand the structures, rules, idioms, basic phrases before we add our two cents?

Your words are better than mine. I think you answered your own question.

I only am objecting to the idea that there is some catalog of riffs that we can pull from. If that is what we're looking for then get the Abersold book and call it a day.

[dvh]

But I find examining suggested riffs helps me understand the structures, rules, idioms, basic phrases. And vise versa, of course.

[PeterChampagne]

+1
Instead of thinking of "preprogrammed" licks, learn to spell out chords and their extensions. That way human creativity interacts with real logic.

[chris dammann]

i found this Bill Evans interview that takes on this topic in an interesting way.
http://www.stevehillis.com/MP3s/Bill...0Interview.mp3

my two cents is transcribing is a great ear training tool, a way of being able to grab more of whats going on around on the band stand as its happening and not a very effective way to build vocabulary. I think the best way to build vocab is to just pick up your instrument and play. free improvisation is my best practice for playing standards, call me crazy. to roughly quote William Parker, "everyone is always looking for their sound, when its already there in their hands."

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Treyzer

When you study a foreign language, it is common to repeat phrases over and over until you get the sound and feel and timing: Le jambon est mon amie n'est pas?....

The best language programs, though, immerse you in people speaking the language from Day 1 - nobody speaks anything but the language in class, you learn practical application along with vocabulary. The parroting of phraseology is more typically applied to academic situations where they need a "module" that can be graded, hence the emphasis on vocabulary (both words and memorized phrases) that can be graded objectively (you know it or you don't know it).

Originally Posted by TAZORED

Since most of us weren't around in the "golden age of jazz", or at least the time when many of the recordings we all love and talk about were recorded, how do we assimilate and absorb all of that information/vocabulary?

In similar ways to how our "forefathers" (and mothers) did it, getting your ear to the point that you can hear a line with clarity internally (whether it's Prez' line or your own) and your command of your instrument to the point that what you are hearing internally can come out on it.

Originally Posted by TRES SORE

Is it not important to listen, transcribe, breakdown and hopefully assimilate the literature? What is the best way to do this?

Yes, absolutely. See above.

Originally Posted by TREYZER SOZE

If we really want to learn the language, don't we have to understand the structures, rules, idioms, basic phrases before we add our two cents?

Ask yourself this - how much about structure, rules, idioms did you need to understand before you opened your mouth as a child? All of us expressed our thoughts and feelings with the vocabulary we had. Because what we wanted was to communicate. Yes, you want to gain depth of understanding and increase the specificity with which you can communicate. But (and here we go) you didn't need to go to the dictionary and get the words to say "Mater, the antics of the juvenile feline are amusing in the extreme", you just said, "Mama, funny kitten".

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Treyzer

I notice that we have 3 really great teachers weighing in on this topic so... I'm asking Sam, Ed and Marc (fingers) what their opinions are. I'm asking as if I were a student and actually, i still am.

Make that "two" please. I can't and don't teach. I'm no good with students. I lack patience and have too much ego.

Originally Posted by Treyzer

Since most of us weren't around in the "golden age of jazz", or at least the time when many of the recordings we all love and talk about were recorded, how do we assimilate and absorb all of that information/vocabulary?

. . . and here's the proof. I must be missing something important about your question because the only answer I know is this: If you love that music you will Listen, Practice and Play.

Originally Posted by Treyzer

Is it not important to listen, transcribe, breakdown and hopefully assimilate the literature? What is the best way to do this?

THERE IS NOT ONE BEST WAY.

Transcribing is not important to me. I have never written out a solo or a walking line. I could probably play along with parts of Kind of Blue, Coltrane Plays The Blues and Saxophone Colossus for minutes at a time -- I could certainly hum or whistle them. But it's not like I said, "Hey, I'm gonna listen to John Abercrombie play 'Ralph's Piano Waltz' so many times that I could whistle along!" I just did it because the music moved me (and still does).

I don't want to transcribe. I'm ready to pay the price, in my playing, for indulging that whim. If you benefit from transcribing go on ahead. Don't let some sh1t-head on a website talk you out of it either!

Originally Posted by Treyzer

I know that there are bassists I have studied a whole lot and certainly stolen their licks and/or phrases...

Yep. Every time I walk C-C#-D-C#-C there's Paul Chambers looking over my shoulder. But I hope months go by when I don't say, "Hey, I'm gonna play the PC walking lick now!"

Originally Posted by Treyzer

As John Lennon said, "amateurs borrow, professionals steal". Sooner or later this stuff kind of twists and turns and becomes mine and part of my vocab/toolbox. If we really want to learn the language, don't we have to understand the structures, rules, idioms, basic phrases before we add our two cents?

Interesting. I've heard that same quote phrased as, "Mediocre composers borrow; great composers steal" and attributed to no less than Johannes Brahms!

There are people who learn to play jazz without learning licks. My son Dylan was one. As a result, he did not shred on the horn the way that people who were learning licks were shredding, but even as a young player he brought himself to the moment and people really dug it.

Maybe it's easier to teach kids licks than it is to teach them to listen and blow -- using licks provides the illusion of competence even though it actually intrudes on genuine improvisation. It takes some players a long time to get to the point where they can experience success in the moment. That can be frustrating for players and for teachers. Equally to the point, not all teachers are free enough of ego to guide their students as they seek their own path.

All I am saying is this:

* Practice at home. When you're playing, be there.
* There is time to learn licks later.
* It is never too early for players to learn to work in the moment.

No more. No less.