Advice

[BillyMac]

Recently started playing with a new bluegrass Band. New to me as they have played together for years.They heard me play with my current band and thought that I would be a great addition.However, One of the band members assumed that I could play all their songs by ear. But I couldn't. I need to learn a song first by seeing chord books, fake books or sheet music. At least long enough to learn the song. Am I a bad bass player for needing to hear and learn a song first? Only been at this three years and never played an instrument before.

[bassist1962]

You are not a bad bass player for needing to hear and learn a song. That being said ear training is essential for all musicians the way I see it. One teacher told me 'Eventually everything starts sounding the same.' I had no idea what that meant at the time, but at some point, except for melody, feel and instrumentation, Everything started to sound similar in form and structure. What music does your other band play? I grew up (as a musician) on Progressive Rock and Jazz Fusion, eventually found the Blues and Folk Rock I had listened to before I became a musician, and became a more solid player. It also became easier to play the Prog and Fusion music as well. I played in a Country band in the '90's. It is all music. I have recently been invited to a Bluegrass jam. I agreed, then listened. I can play Prog Rock, but can't manage to play Bluegrass. Not really because of what is being played, it is just sheer speed that I have a problem with. It is still the same thing I am playing in basic Rock, Blues, or Country. Keep in mind the form - Your I IV V progression, or the Rythm changes (I VI II V). This has helped me more than anything else in getting through a new song. I hope this helps you. Otherwise ignore the ramblings.

[BillyMac]

My other band does bluegrass but we all got together as a new band and learned the the songs together. These guys that I was talking about have been together for thirty years and seems like they go thrugh a few bass players.

[Sippy]

Nah you're not a bad bass player just because of that. Ear training is very very important. It may be worth taking some courses at your local college just for that. Even with ear training courses though it takes years to develope the technique to hear a song and play it right away.

[drurb]

Seems like this thread belongs under "technique" and not "basses."

[Jake deVilliers]

Its the Bluegrass thing BillyMac.

At some point between intermediate and advanced, everything is played by ear: changes, solos, harmonies.
Its one of my favorite things about Bluegrass; anybody who's any good at all is listening hard all the time. We do mostly original material and there are no books available to help the banjo player learn the songs.

You aren't necessarily untalented, just untrained. Try playing along with CDs to gain confidence in your ear and try to tape or otherwise record your rehearsals so that you can spend more time with the new-to-you material on your own.

If you have a good enough ear to play your DB in tune, you'll start to hear where the tunes are going soon enough.

[relacey]

I've been working along the same learning curve. If you haven't found it yet, there's some good info on Bluegrass Bass Place. Check out the chord charts and instructional pages for basic patterns and the message board for some good discussion. Put some Flatt & Scruggs or Bill Monroe on the CD player and play along.

[bribass]

Originally Posted by relacey

I've been working along the same learning curve. If you haven't found it yet, there's some good info on Bluegrass Bass Place. Check out the chord charts and instructional pages for basic patterns and the message board for some good discussion. Put some Flatt & Scruggs or Bill Monroe on the CD player and play along.

Learning the fundamentals of basic harmony will go a long way to help as well.

BG

[BillyMac]

Thanks for the responses. Some songs I hear and figure it out by the end of the first verse. Others songs with frequent chord changes I need to replay the song a dozen times. Sorry about not putting this under technique. New to the Forum but do see where it is going to come in handy.

[Damon Rondeau]

Sometimes people coming from the blues & rock universe get a little tripped up with country music and bluegrass. Sure, the chords are I, IV & V (with a nice spice of II's thrown in) but they aren't necessarily set up in a 12 or 16 bar blues form. The guy with the blues in his ears is expecting the IV chord to come along and guess what? It's another two bars of I followed by two of V -- or whatever. A few simple chords, yes, but it can really be any arrangement at all of those chords.

These tunes are about melody. My advice is to focus on learning the melodies and words of the tunes. Don't try and learn the tunes as sequences of chords. Then they'll definitely merge into one unlearnable (by my brain, anyway) mess. Like having to learn 35 polkas for a wedding gig or something...

[bassist1962]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Sometimes people coming from the blues & rock universe get a little tripped up with country music and bluegrass. Sure, the chords are I, IV & V (with a nice spice of II's thrown in) but they aren't necessarily set up in a 12 or 16 bar blues form. The guy with the blues in his ears is expecting the IV chord to come along and guess what? It's another two bars of I followed by two of V -- or whatever. A few simple chords, yes, but it can really be any arrangement at all of those chords.

These tunes are about melody. My advice is to focus on learning the melodies and words of the tunes. Don't try and learn the tunes as sequences of chords. Then they'll definitely merge into one unlearnable (by my brain, anyway) mess. Like having to learn 35 polkas for a wedding gig or something...

This is EXACTLY what tripped me up about Bluegrass. I got the attitude that is was going to be simple just because (insert reason here). I have recently discovered a whole lot of musicians are intimidated by Bluegrass music that can play almost anything else. It's weird!

[bribass]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Sometimes people coming from the blues & rock universe get a little tripped up with country music and bluegrass. Sure, the chords are I, IV & V (with a nice spice of II's thrown in) but they aren't necessarily set up in a 12 or 16 bar blues form. The guy with the blues in his ears is expecting the IV chord to come along and guess what? It's another two bars of I followed by two of V -- or whatever. A few simple chords, yes, but it can really be any arrangement at all of those chords.

These tunes are about melody. My advice is to focus on learning the melodies and words of the tunes. Don't try and learn the tunes as sequences of chords. Then they'll definitely merge into one unlearnable (by my brain, anyway) mess. Like having to learn 35 polkas for a wedding gig or something...

Good advice. there are alot of odd quick little turns to the IV or V chord for two beats seemingly out of nowhere in Bluegrass. Or odd forms, often w/ an extra couple of bars of the tonic at the end of a chorus just when you think the your at the top of the chorus.. you're not. There may be an extra little vamp of two or four bars before the top. When playing live in a situation where you don't know a tune, keep a close ear to the melody as well as the changes. Try to stay as relaxed and loose as you can. Listen for form. Two bar, four bar, eight bar, sixteen bar groupings. When the IV, V or ii chords happen etc. and try to remember the patterns for the next chorus. You'll find the same type of harmonic devices used over all the time, just grouped and combined in different ways sometimes w/ a twist or a little unexpected change, but it's always (and here's the thing) to support and according to the MELODY. I find when memorizing the changes to any tune wether it be a Jazz standard, Bluegrass, Pop tune..whatever the melody is the key to remembering the chords.

BG

[bassist1962]

Originally Posted by bribass

You'll find the same type of harmonic devices used over all the time, just grouped and combined in different ways sometimes w/ a twist or a little unexpected change, but it's always (and here's the thing) to support and according to the MELODY. I find when memorizing the changes to any tune wether it be a Jazz standard, Bluegrass, Pop tune..whatever the melody is the key to remembering the chords.

BG

Yes it is. I find when whoever goes off on a tangent of a solo, I think of the melody, sing to myself, or whatever to keep myself in place. When I learned Prog Rock I never counted, too confusing. I just tried to find something else to hang onto. I was usually the melody.

[lowEndRick]

Great thread. I haven't been playing bluegrass bass for very long either. One of my big learning experiences has been sitting in as the house bassist for a monthly bluegrass open mic. What a workout! Half the people that get up there are too nervous to even turn around and tell me the key. I've gotten pretty used to listening for the changes. And I agree its all about the melody. I too sing the melody in my head when others are soloing to keep track of where we are.

I had a gig with our band yesterday and our singer played 2 songs I never heard before. Paying attention to the melody is what got me thru.

[Steve Killingsworth]

Just be patient and hang in there. It will all click one day and you won't have any problem with most bluegrass.

Another thing that might help is try Band in a Box. Sounds like crap but it can really help you learn to recognize progressions and deal with changes.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by lowEndRick

Paying attention to the melody is what got me thru.

When I'm playing a strange tune, it's at the point now where I trip myself up by anticipating the melody and guessing wrong...

Don't forget, you can't go wrong keeping it simple. Simple and solid is what does it.

[bassist1962]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Don't forget, you can't go wrong keeping it simple. Simple and solid is what does it.

Indeed!

[lowEndRick]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

When I'm playing a strange tune, it's at the point now where I trip myself up by anticipating the melody and guessing wrong...

Well, ya see, I have a very strict rule. I don't play no "strange songs"

[Whit Townsend]

You've only been playing three years and this is your first instr. Its not suprising you are having the trouble you are.
Give yourself a break! They will just have to be paitient and work with you if they want to keep you.
Especially the guitar player. Ask him to let you watch his chords while you are trying to lear a new song.

[BillyMac]

Thanks for the support