Am I approaching my upright/jazz studies the right way?

[RyRob813]

I'm still fairly new to jazz, and I've played the upright for five years now, but it was only in my high school orchestra, where I just read.

I'm mainly an electric player, and I plan to keep it that way through college and hopefully into my career, but I would like to be good enough on upright to play some more casual jazz gigs and not get my *** kicked.

Being new to jazz, and having just reached this point in my college studies, I'm just beginning to learn how to really walk. I view and understand things on electric much better, and being that that's my major instrument, I'm learning to walk on electric.

My goal is to simultaneously learn to walk on the electric, while using things like http://http://www.amazon.com/Browns-...2571229&sr=8-2 this book to nail down my scales, arpeggios, and intervals on upright, and then take the walking and other functional things to the upright, thus achieving my goal.

Sound like a decent plan?

Thanks!

[fingers]

Welcome. There are some crusty old farts around here (including myself) that have strong opinions. Don't let it scare you off. Take it all as what has worked for the individuals giving the advice.

Originally Posted by RyRob813

I'm mainly an electric player, and I plan to keep it that way through college and hopefully into my career, but I would like to be good enough on upright to play some more casual jazz gigs and not get my *** kicked.

Be careful with the idea of "good enough". I tried to double for a while and be "good enough" to get work on both basses and I was successful but it left me feeling empty. Too scattered. For the last 10 years I have really focused on DB and jazz in specific. I have a porkchop and there is an exclusive secret society of folks that know that but I am really picky.

Originally Posted by RyRob813

My goal is to simultaneously learn to walk on the electric,

I'm a total purist here but I think there should be a law, punishable by death, for walking on the electric.

Good luck man. The BASS is the best.

[bassbuddie]

I think learning to walk is the same on electric and Upright. But learning to Play on upright is something else.

Get a teacher, is always the 1st answer. Try this method, it's a good book and it's made by a member of Talkbass.

http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Bassic.../dp/1883217504

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by RyRob813

I'm mainly an electric player, and I plan to keep it that way through college and hopefully into my career, but I would like to be good enough on upright to play some more casual jazz gigs and not get my *** kicked.

Well, don't plan too hard. Once you start playing double bass in more diverse musical situations, you may find it hard to not take it at least as seriously as your bass guitar playing.

I've been a doubler my whole career and while I'm probably identified more with the DB, I do a lot of BG playing and it has been a big part of my musical life. I enjoy playing both instruments and the different styles of music I can participate in because of this. Keep an open mind and see where it leads you.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by fingers

I'm a total purist here but I think there should be a law, punishable by death, for walking on the electric.

The punishment is to walk the plank.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Well, don't plan too hard. Once you start playing double bass in more diverse musical situations, you may find it hard to not take it at least as seriously as your bass guitar playing.

+1. I entered college as a chop guy. When I left I had sold all of them to afford my DB.
Nice one Francis.

[Marcus Johnson]

I'm a full time pro DB player who owns a Fender J, which is basically the same type of electric bass that I started playing almost forty years ago. . The sound in my head and heart is the DB. I haven't played a gig on the Fender in maybe three years, although I teach students on it every week. And if someone called me in the next couple of hours saying "I want you to come down tonight and play a jazz gig on the slab", my answer would be "where and when?".

Life is way too short for musical pigeonholes. Recently, a Youtube video of a guy playing funk (very nicely) on a double bass was lauded in these forums by a bassist whose opinion I regard very highly. I see no reason why you can't play walking lines on a slab, or a tuba, or a B3, or a bassoon, or some extremely gifted vocal cords, if that's the sound you hear in your head.

IMO.

Oh yeah...well played, fdeck.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

if that's the sound you hear in your head.

I agree with you in theory. That said walking on electric is a sound that I never could get in to.

[Marcus Johnson]

Fair enough. Since the OP is "fairly new to jazz" and "just beginning to learn how to really walk"... maybe it would be a fast track to getting it together by playing an instrument on which he is competent and fluent.

The downside currently is that a lot of potential bandmates have a stigma about playing slab in a jazz context, so it may be hard to get real world experience with driving a band on that particular instrument. So what's a new player to do? If you're trying to grasp a musical concept, it seems that you should be able to do it on an instrument that allows you to get to the musical ideas that pass through you. Maybe for the OP, it's two separate musical issues... learning the vernacular of a new musical language, and mastery of a whole bunch of new DB-related techniques. If you look at the original question that RyRob asked in this thread's title, maybe you'll see my point.

Just sayin'... if I heard walking bass lines and jazz harmony in my head, I wouldn't let the presence of only a slab in my crib slow me down.

I just recalled a good friend of mine, named Jesse, who I met when I was in college... he was incarcerated in a minimum security prison, and attending school during the daytime. He was a double bassist, very influenced by PC and Ray like the rest of us. So, I used to carry around my crappy Ovation guitar with me at that time, and when we'd hang, he would detune the strings and play bass lines on my guitar. He mostly avoided the top two strings. It seemed like those were some of the happiest times of his life. I guess he would have preferred a DB, but the stuff that he played sounded pretty pure. I guess I could relate to him, because I used to detune my sister's classical guitar to get at the notes in my head when I was a little kid.

[fingers]

I was also mostly kidding.

[RyRob813]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Fair enough. Since the OP is "fairly new to jazz" and "just beginning to learn how to really walk"... maybe it would be a fast track to getting it together by playing an instrument on which he is competent and fluent.

The downside currently is that a lot of potential bandmates have a stigma about playing slab in a jazz context, so it may be hard to get real world experience with driving a band on that particular instrument. So what's a new player to do? If you're trying to grasp a musical concept, it seems that you should be able to do it on an instrument that allows you to get to the musical ideas that pass through you. Maybe for the OP, it's two separate musical issues... learning the vernacular of a new musical language, and mastery of a whole bunch of new DB-related techniques. If you look at the original question that RyRob asked in this thread's title, maybe you'll see my point..

Hey thanks everyone, really good opinions here. This quote pretty much sums up what I was getting at, however. My goal is less a pursuit to play jazz WITH my BG, and moreso to master the concept on an instrument that makes much more sense to me, and that I'm much better at, and then take the concepts to the less familiar application.

Also, it probably did sound like I'm pigeon holing myself with my pursuits, but I'm always open to every option that could come by. My bass department head at McNally Smith always tells us about how he moved to Los Angeles planning to play funk and fusion, and ended up playing jazz gigs on upright for 15 years. I have ideas of things I think would be fun, but any path that allows me to make my living with my craft is fine by me. If it's music, I can't go wrong. I'm also a music business minor, so there's a chance I could end up only playing on the side anyway!

Long windedness aside, thanks again for the help. I think I'm learning the way that will benefit my personal journey the most

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by fingers

I was also mostly kidding.

Same here, I made that whole story up. In addition, I'm not even a bass player. I'm 17, female, and I work at McDonald's.

Whew... that's load off, after all these years.

[chris dammann]

The thread originator should feel free to ignore my comments since I think no one should be discouraged from studying music however the want too.

Originally Posted by bassbuddie

I think learning to walk is the same on electric and Upright.

I have to disagree. I think the BG has a place in jazz but I find it impossible to replicate the type of rhythms associated with walking basslines on BG in jazz.
I think someone out there could really make a place for themselves in the jazz world exploring the new rhythmic options the BG offers that the DB doesn't. I know that person isn't me and I haven't heard them yet. I know you can't use the same rhythmic devices that work well on the DB on the BG. I think Jack Bruce was the most successful BGist to walk bass lines.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Life is way too short for musical pigeonholes.

One big and one little

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Same here, I made that whole story up. In addition, I'm not even a bass player. I'm 17, female, and I work at McDonald's.

. . . and hopes to be an actress someday . . . [sing along] Dance Fever

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by RyRob813

Hey thanks everyone, really good opinions here. This quote pretty much sums up what I was getting at, however. My goal is less a pursuit to play jazz WITH my BG, and moreso to master the concept on an instrument that makes much more sense to me, and that I'm much better at, and then take the concepts to the less familiar application.

I tried playing Jazz on BG for several years - mostly for the same reasons you describe - but basically because I couldn't face being a total beginner again!!

However - as people have said, walking lines just never sounded or felt "right" - no matter what BG I got.... I could play fast and fluent solos over changes, but the groove/swing of Jazz I heard on records and at gigs, just wasn't there...

So after having a go with EUB for a while and making more progress, I finally bit the bullet and got a DB and it makes so much difference - finally I can realise the sound and feel of Jazz that I was trying to get.

It is so different pulling through the strings and really feeling it - it all suddenly slots into place. Also - while on BG I tended to avoid open strings and the G string always sounded too thin...? On DB it is the opposite - so I use the G and all open strings a lot and it gives a totally differnet emphasis to walking lines - there are many other subtelties and my personal feeling is that walking on BG and DB is just like chalk and cheese and the sooner you get to the point where you are playing what you want - the better!

[bigblondeafro87]

I'm in a similar situation at college. Next semester I'm starting a minor in music along with my engineering degree and I have to learn upright. While it is tough to start on a physically different instrument, as I get better at DB I feel like it unlocks new ideas for playing on the BG. I think learning new instruments always makes you a more musical person because you look at music in a different aspect. Learning DB is teaching me the importance of solid chord tones, solid time feel, and using the bass as a percussion instrument as much as a melodic one.

[ZonGuy]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

I see no reason why you can't play walking lines on a slab, or a tuba, or a B3, or a bassoon, or some extremely gifted vocal cords, if that's the sound you hear in your head.

.

Thumbs up - exactamente!

One of my favorite "upright players" is Mark Sumners from Turtle Island Quartet (who plays cello). Another is Joey Stampinato from NRBQ (who plays a short scale electric, but it swings like a real doghouse). Another is the B3 player from Michael Brecker's "Tales from the Hudson" (?).

You can learn good "upright" lines from any instrument, because, orignally, they all started in someone's head.

If you want to learn walking bass lines, I suggest...
1) You figure out what you want you bassline to do for the music (this may take months because everyone has a different take on this);
2) go practice your objective - get a real book, play the stds over and over again until the ideas flow down from your head to your fingers (this may take years)
3) Get as many real book jobs or jams that you can land and play, play, play.

I liked Rufus Reid's DVD for its philosophy; it took me several viewings to pick up on all the nuances of what he was trying to convey.

[hdiddy]

IMO, if RyRob is looking to keep playing the chop just because it's more "practical" and "easier".... and if it ends up that RyRob has a real love for jazz - I would not be surprised in two years time he would ditch the chop almost completely and go full bore into DB like how Bruce and so many of us have.

Jazz lovers playing EB are just simply in self-denial the truth and power of the DB (except for Steve Swallow and even he played it for quite some time). Anybody wanna take any bets he'll take the leap eventually?

Get a good teacher... play lots of legato notes. Fair warning tho, the more you try to replicate good DB Jazzers, the more you will probably want to bring out that beautiful growl that's hard to get on EB.

[kurt]

I did most of my college on electric because the teacher at my school at the time was more focused on it. I eventually got an upright when I changed schools. I really regret not focusing on the upright at least as much as electric back then. I learned all the scales and arpeggios with all kinds of fingerings forwards backwards whatever on electric. When I started playing upright I kind of dove into trying to play everything I could on electric without taking the time to master the scales and technique on the thing. I've been playing upright on 98% of my gigs for the last ten years and I still don't know the thing as inside out as I should.

Playing upright is not something you can take lightly. If you only put half the effort in, you're always gonna be half ***ed on it! In fact If you want to be good on upright it's gonna take MORE work than electric because of the strength and intonation involved. It's well worth it though, it is THE sound I hear in my head, and electric bass eventually got a bit boring because it felt like it wasn't challenging enough after 20 years. Upright is something I can work on for the rest of my life. And because of the challenge the rewards feel that much greater!

Having said all that, I'm not trying to be discouraging, just trying to encourage you to not make the mistakes I did. Remember to not take things too seriously, it is called playing after all!

PS. the difficulty thing can be subjective. My girlfriend is really interested in upright so I taught her a couple tunes like All Blues and Cantaloupe Island. When she tried it on electric she said "this is harder than upright!" HA!