Arco, how much time do you jazz guys spend on it . . .

[Michael Case]

. . . and when does it stop being helpful? I ask because I feel like I'm spending too much time with the bow working on etudes, scales, and arpeggios and not enough time trying to improve my skills as a jazz bassist (learning melodies, and working on the Joe/Ed exercise). I feel like my progress with the bow is stunted because I spend no time outside the practice room using it and I get discouraged. I know it's beneficial to work with the bow as well as being the way the instrument is meant to be played. I also know that many people on this site (Chris F and Ed to name two) don't do arco practice and sound GREAT.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks Mike. As mentioned, I do vitually no bow practice, although i do work on classical etudes pizz from time to time. One of my students just started taking supplemental arco lessons from Sid King, and her intonation has improved greatly since she started last semester. The biggest aspect of that was her awareness of her intonation. FWIW, YMMV, BBQ, etc.

[Michael Case]

I know what you mean about intonation. Mine has improved greatly and I know a lot of that has to do with my arco work. The thing is, I can't make my arco sound musical and it discourages me from trying to go further with it (actually play a piece of music). Plus I've never had a "legit" lesson in my life. I've had teachers that play arco beautifully, but they are mainly jazz teachers and don't really teach arco.

The other part is this, jazz is the music that made want to play the double bass, it's what I strive to play well. I do love classical music and classical bass, I'd love to be able to make that type of music myself even, but my hands are full with learning jazz. I'm also afraid my neighbors, girlfriend, and cat can only take so much torture before they all team up and take out their mutual source of displeasure.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Thanks Mike. As mentioned, I do vitually no bow practice, although i do work on classical etudes pizz from time to time. One of my students just started taking supplemental arco lessons from Sid King, and her intonation has improved greatly since she started last semester. The biggest aspect of that was her awareness of her intonation. FWIW, YMMV, BBQ, etc.

Can you explain what you mean by awareness of intonation. Does this have to do with the concept of hearing the note before you play it?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by mike da mook

Can you explain what you mean by awareness of intonation. Does this have to do with the concept of hearing the note before you play it?

Something like that. In her case, she was into the older school jazz players who either played gut or had a really dark sound. I know I'll catch hell for saying this, but in my experience, a lot of the times when I hear players play with a really dark sound, I hear them playing out of tune but having it "masked" by the big, thick, dark sound....except when you listen back carefully on a recording or hear them out of the context of being covered up by the ride cymbal and/or piano. When I say "awareness of intonation" I simply mean hearing the note in tune before it's played, and then nailing the note on the bass and not being satisfied with being "close enough for jazz" pitchwise, even if it's swinging and the rhythm feels good.

I'm pretty OCD about intonation to the point where it's the first aspect I look at when I judge anything I've played after the fact (I'm also OCD about recording ). If I'm playing out of tune, there's no way I can walk away feeling like I played well even if the other criteria are met. In this student's case, I think that playing with the bow - painful as it was and is for her - raised her awareness of her intonation in general to the point where she is now way more aware of it when she's not playing with the bow. She used to dislike playing my basses because the action was a bit high and the strings are always high tension and of the "bright" variety (Starks/Dominants, etc). Lately, since she's been playing arco, she suddenly likes playing them because the setup enables her to hear pitch so much more quickly and be heard. She's also becoming more in tune (pun intended) to the concept of being in the intonation "sweet spot" in an ensemble setting rather than being in the ballpark.

[Michael Case]

Another dumb question for you. What tools have you found helpful in improving your intonation? I'd like to know what I can do in pizz practice to help me play more in tune.

[Lovebown]

My humble opinion is that playing arco does not only improve your intonation but it improves your overall lefthand technique.
Phrasing, shifting...you name it.

Since I recently started working a lot with the bow this has come apparent to me as to so many others players.
Most of the good jazz bass players ranging from the 1930s and on practiced a lot of bowing.

With the bow, as you probably know, everything becomes even more apparent intonation wise. If you can play something in tune, with a good sound arco, then you really know it! There's no "masking" with the bow.

[Michael Case]

I dig what your saying, but where I'm getting at is I have spent MANY hours with the bow and I have seen the difference it has made for me. My problem is making music with the bow, I don't want to just practice mechanical exercises with it, but my abilities don't seem to go beyond the mechanical stage. It just seems like the time I spend learning to control the bow could be used to transcribe or work on aspects of jazz playing.

[Marcus Johnson]

Hey Mike, you probably don't need another method book, but you might want to check out John Goldsby's jazz arco book. It helps a lot in busting up the rhythmic patterns that are common in the more "legit" bass courses. He spends a lot of time explaining why certain combinations of bowings swing.

I'm really influenced by singers and horn players when soloing, so I try to emulate the sound and phrasing of those influences when I practice arco (not enough, BTW). I basically try to forget that I'm playing bass, and think in vocal terms instead. I do the same thing when soloing pizz.

[hdiddy]

Mike, you might consider keeping up with your arco. I know I've only studied DB/arco for just a couple of years but I want to say that I'm finally getting past that "mechanical" sound after my last lesson. My teach gave me some stuff that just focused on my feel with the bow and it's had a huge effect. I don't neccessarily feel like my sound is that of a cat being tortured anymore. My girlfriend agrees that it's tolerable now. Now that the sound is much better, I'm more inspired to get deeper into arco. Perhaps you just need a decent lesson with a classical pro and focus on your feel?

[Michael Case]

It's all part of the journey I guess. I've been considering some classical lessons for a while, maybe I should just do it already. The thing that upsets me the most is the fact that in the past five years I've had two teachers who are great jazz bassists that can bow beautifully too. So it's hard not to feel like I'm the problem.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by mike da mook

Another dumb question for you. What tools have you found helpful in improving your intonation? I'd like to know what I can do in pizz practice to help me play more in tune.

Singing everything before taking it to the bass: melodies, root motion, guide tones, scales, arpeggios, solos, you name it. For me, when something is mechanical, it won't ever be in tune the way something intuitive and musical is. The ear-hand connection is everything.

A few years ago I got disgusted with my practice methods and started over with a new method in which everything is about having the intention to be musical at all times. In this method (there's a description of it Here), I don't even pick up the bass until I can sing what it is I'm trying to play. Admittedly, my brain's damaged and wired funny, but this has been working for me so far. As far as the bow goes, I would advocate the same thing: hear and hear well what you're trying to get out before you touch the bass. i think this is a good habit no matter what kind of music you're trying to make.

[Michael Case]

That's seems like a really good method. It's very much in the spirit of the method Ed posted in the music theory forum (which I have been working on). Maybe I can find a way to work this in to my practice.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by mike da mook

It's all part of the journey I guess. I've been considering some classical lessons for a while, maybe I should just do it already. The thing that upsets me the most is the fact that in the past five years I've had two teachers who are great jazz bassists that can bow beautifully too. So it's hard not to feel like I'm the problem.

Mike, I would imagine that if you've been working on the fundamentals for the past 5 years, it wouldn't take long for you to get a nice feel. If you devoted some of the energy you put into jazz into your arco instead and given the right amount of direction from a teacher, I don't see why you couldn't get musical with it. Have you actually tried telling your teachers you want to get a more musical sound out of your arco?

My teacher is primarily a jazz player, but he does beautiful arco as well. I never wait to ask him stuff like this. Like I said before, the last time I saw him I was grinding out some loud and functional sounds. But still pretty mechanical and unmusical. I made sure I told him I didn't like the sound that I was getting and he remedied that pretty quick.

[Ale]

I pratice mostly with arco , some pizz.
I do som BG jobs , so ill get my fingerspeed from there , even though it is different tecniques , it keeps my fingers strong.
The arco praticing is beacuse of the intonation.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Mike, I would imagine that if you've been working on the fundamentals for the past 5 years, it wouldn't take long for you to get a nice feel. If you devoted some of the energy you put into jazz into your arco instead and given the right amount of direction from a teacher, I don't see why you couldn't get musical with it. Have you actually tried telling your teachers you want to get a more musical sound out of your arco?

My teacher is primarily a jazz player, but he does beautiful arco as well. I never wait to ask him stuff like this. Like I said before, the last time I saw him I was grinding out some loud and functional sounds. But still pretty mechanical and unmusical. I made sure I told him I didn't like the sound that I was getting and he remedied that pretty quick.

No, I never do bring it up with my teacher, I will this week though and see what he says. It's a good idea, why didn't I think of that?

[PB+J]

this is a great question--I've been thinking about this myself, and although I'm nowhere near as good as many people here, I had a gig last night where I felt like I was really nailing the pitches

I practice arco a lot but I'm not sure it helps all that much with intonation. At first I thought it did. But now I play a scale and it sounds in tune arco, but sometimes sounds off pizz! In arco you can vibrato your way into being in tune, or you can sort of use the bow to "cover"--changing timbre or speed can change pitch a little. I've noticed that I've kind of developed an arco style, in which the right hand is also really important in being in tune. But pizz, none of those tricks are available. Does that make sense?

It seems to me as a jazz player that arco is very good for the left hand, as was already mentioned--it's really good for establishing a mental connection between the left hand and your tone. It's a lot of fun to play arco because you have all that sustain and control of dynamics, but where it's really helped me has been in getting a stronger, more precise, more authoritative tone

Also I think chris is right that you want to develop intonation awareness. Working arco a lot has helped me hear the pitches better, but it's mostly because of the long tones, the ability to hear and adjust for small changes. But you can't make the same kind of adjustments in pizz playing, and so I've been noticing lately that it seems harder to be in tune pizz than it does arco.

Really, it's a very hard instrument. At last night's gig I did an hour and a half of double bass in a trio and the switched to electric bass in a quintet. The slab is so comically easy to play!

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by mike da mook

. . . and when does it stop being helpful? I ask because I feel like I'm spending too much time with the bow working on etudes, scales, and arpeggios and not enough time trying to improve my skills as a jazz bassist (learning melodies, and working on the Joe/Ed exercise). I feel like my progress with the bow is stunted because I spend no time outside the practice room using it and I get discouraged. I know it's beneficial to work with the bow as well as being the way the instrument is meant to be played.

Why don't you try bowing the arpeggios of the changes to some tunes your trying to learn? Better than that, why don't you bow the melodies to them? I love doing that. Not every tune lends itself to the melodies being played on bass, but enough do. I'd suggest these tunes for bowed melodies on the bass:
Sophisticated Lady
In A Sentimental Mood
I Remember You
Con Alma
Body & Soul
Darn That Dream
I Got It Bad
Embraceble You
Someone To Watch Over Me
If You Could See Me Now
Corcovado
Dindi
I Should Care
All The Things You Are
Those are all nice ballad/straight eighth note feels so it's more "classical" in approach. When you want to start swinging,
these tunes might be good:
Doxy
Yardbird Suite
Oleo
Au Privave
Ornithology
etc. the hard part is the difference in bow feel between straight eighth and swing, mainly because of the accent on the first eighth note in a pair. John Goldsby, as mentioned already, wrote about this in his book.
Hope this helps.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by PB+J

Working arco a lot has helped me hear the pitches better, but it's mostly because of the long tones, the ability to hear and adjust for small changes. But you can't make the same kind of adjustments in pizz playing, and so I've been noticing lately that it seems harder to be in tune pizz than it does arco.

I agree, but the other side of the equation is what kind of pizz sound you are going for. With reasonably bright strings (spiros, dominants, etc...) and with enough tension, you can (if you like that sound) develop a sound and technique that allows pitch to be heard more quickly so that adjustments can be made quickly while playing. A couple of the things that have helped my intonation the most have been getting a good strong stop with the left hand on each note by practicing without the thumb on the back of the neck and using the whole arm weight to stop the string, and getting a bright RH attack by staying close to the end of the fingerboard and pulling the string along the arc of the fingerboard with arm weight as the driving force so that it vibrates parallel to the board, which I believe promotes clarity.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a way to do these things while standing, but there are plenty of people who have learned to do this...Lynn Seaton is one who immediately comes to mind. It's always amazing for me to see him each year playing acoustic duos on his Czech Ease with a regular bass on the other side of the duo and having no trouble producing a big clear sound. I think Lynn simply hears powerfully!

[Mike Crumpton]

hmmm - my experience - or rather the sound I like is produced a little differently to Chris and was most influenced by playing arco and wanting that arco richness in my pizz sound and my personal belief is that I get the sound I want by a pizz stroke more into the fingerboard than across it, which to my ears sounds dull and lifeless. But this is my bass played with my hands with my technique etc etc

I find I can nail pitches easier pizz than arco though, but hear them far clearer arco. Acro didn't for ages give me the freedom mentioned in a post above but it has revolutionised my left hand playing and made it much more fluid and accurate. I have to say I think my different experience of freedom is because I stand and when standing, arco alters the feelling of balance I have for the the bass quite a lot. The bass is now more free in my hands - I don't have to lock it into a fixed position - in fact it's like the description of a good bow hold.

A large proportion of my practise and sometimes all of it is arco and it doesn't seem to detrat from my pizz tyechnique at all (I think of course!). You need considerable control of your whole arm from the shoulder to use a bow and so indeed you do pizz.

I do a bit of soloing arco these days - I enjoy the sound and the challenge - the main ones being attack and intonation :-) but I find it addictive. I don't often inflict them on the public though.

My personal view is that I would never have broken through some milestones in facility if I hadn't played arco. Hearing a properly produced arco sound from my bass was a revelation to me and as I said, a big influence on what I wanted to hear. However, it took a long long time to get to the foothills and now I'll never know if I could have spent the time better just playing pizz. :-)))